Principer och praktik

Plötsligt drabbades vi av en dubbel mediastorm i kölvattnet av en intill dess inte alls uppmärksammad artikel på Aftonbladets kultursida för några dagar sedan.

Att artikelförfattarens anklagelser väckte starka känslor i Israel är inte svårt att förstå. Bittra historiska erfarenheter har lett till en naturlig och stark känslighet för antydningar eller anklagelser som skulle kunna ge den öppna anti-semitismen luft under vingarna.

Och det är förvisso sant att vi alla måste ha en stark vaksamhet mot allt som kan uppfattas som antisemtisim.  Jag tycker också att det är någonting som vi faktiskt har på bredden av det svenska samhället.

Inte i någon fråga som jag har diskuterat i riksdagen har enigheten varit så total som i fördömandet av varje form av antisemitism.

På sina håll i Israel har man begärt att vi på ett eller annat sätt skulle ta offentligt avstånd från denna artikel eller t o m ingripa för att förhindra att en sådan artikel skulle kunna publiceras.

Men så fungerar inte vårt land – och skall inte heller göra det.

Skulle jag ägna mig åt att korrigera alla konstiga debattinlägg i olika media skulle jag nog inte ha tid att ägna mig åt så mycket annat. Och kritik mot en av dem skulle kunna uppfattas som att jag tycker att alla andra är bra.

I vår grundlag står av hävd yttrande- och pressfriheten mycket stark. Och det starka skyddet har tjänat vår demokrati och vårt land väl.

I andra skeden har olika regimer försökt att få olika svenska regeringar att begränsa pressens kritik och frihet. Och de slutsatser vi alla har dragit av dessa händelser är att det är viktigt att vi har det starka grundlagsskydd som vi faktiskt har.

Värnet mot omdömeslöshet, smaklöshet eller övertramp mot grundläggande värderingar i vårt samhälle ligger ytterst och bäst i den fria och kritiska diskussionen självt.

När vi för en tid sedan hade en upprörd diskussion om sådant som av många uppfattades som offentlig smädelse av islam och profeten Mohammed tror jag att vi vann förståelse för att det är genom öppenhet som vi bäst bygger den tolerans och den förståelse som är så viktig i vårt samhälle.

Så tror jag också att det är i detta fall.

Men både denna storm och den vi tidigare hade – då med fokus i andra delar av Mellersta Östern – visar att vi lever i en värld där också den offentliga debatten spiller över gamla gränser och där vi alla i olika sammanhang gör klokt i att vara medvetna om historiska, nationella och religiösa känsligheter.

Liksom vikten av att vi fortsätter att hålla fast vid den yttrande- och pressfrihet som är en så väsentlig del av vår demokrati.

341 kommentarer till Principer och praktik

  1. smalanningen skriver:

    Amen! Helt enig med dig Carl.

  2. Kachina skriver:

    Tydligt svar. Hoppas Helle Klein är tillfreds med det svaret.

  3. tdliblrac skriver:

    Som vanligt svarar Carl Bildt genom att inte svara. Frågan var hur Carl Bildt ser på den svenska ambassadörens (i Israel) agerande genom sitt pressmeddelande. Inte med en stavelse ger han uttryck för sin åsikt i frågan, så frågan kvarstår obesvarad.

  4. Kachina skriver:

    ”Frågan var hur Carl Bildt ser på den svenska ambassadörens (i Israel) agerande genom sitt pressmeddelande. Inte med en stavelse ger han uttryck för sin åsikt i frågan, så frågan kvarstår obesvarad.”

    NATURLIGTVIS INTE.

    Hur kan någon TRO att en svensk utrikesminister skall kommentera sin ambassadör i MEDIA??????

    Befängt, på min ära.

  5. petralarsson skriver:

    Jag håller helt med dig, tryckfriheten är mycket väsentlig.

  6. surgeoncommander skriver:

    Kachina!

    Min erfarenhet säger mig att Helle Klein aldrig blir nöjd. Hon lär väl hålla på att veva ytterligare ett tag i denna ”affär” på Aftonbladets ledarsida och på sin blogg.

  7. Kachina skriver:

    En fråga till Donald Boström och Helle Klein.

    VARFÖR överge ett sannolikt scoop och istället publicera en artikel som lämnas öppen för spekulationer?

    Jag menar, Boström fotograferade och bevittnade hur kroppen vanvördigt dumpades inför familjen. Han tog en bild som visade att mannen obducerats. Helle Klein frågar sig varför man obducerat en man vars dödsorsak redan var uppenbar.

    Det frågar även jag. Det frågade säkert Boström och familjen. Det måste finnas läkare och obducenter även i Palestina, så varför inte klippa upp de få stygnen och kontrollera om alla organ fanns kvar?

    Detta gör artikeln mindre trovärdig och Aftonbladets syften luddiga. Det finns kriminella israeler, det har funnits judisk maffia sedan 30-talet, så det är inte otänkbart att det skett en organstöld. Längre än så kan man inte gå.

    Man kan inte anklaga det judiska folket och Israels regering för en förmodad organstöld, kanske utförd av en maffia, som man med lätthet kunnat bevisa.

    Vi har maffia även i Sverige. Vem anklagar svenska folket för deras gärningar.

    I det här fallet bedömer jag att ingen organstöld har skett. Det hade varit alldeles för enkelt att bevisa om man fullföljt, och därmed fått ett scoop.

  8. flyktingar skriver:

    ”Värnet mot omdömeslöshet, smaklöshet eller övertramp mot grundläggande värderingar i vårt samhälle ligger ytterst och bäst i den fria och kritiska diskussionen självt.”

    Låt oss för all del kritiskt studera AB:s organskröna. I min bok har AB äntligen kommit ut ur garderoben.

    AB prövar den svenska tryckfrihetens gräns likt en omogen tonåring. Att en anständighetens gräns har överträtts står helt klart.

    Det framgår av AB:s försvarsreaktioner och mottattacker att ytterligare sådana gränser kommer att överträdas i en snar framtid, övertramp som kommer att hårt pröva den juridiska gränsen till hets mot folkgrupp.

  9. Supergiraffen skriver:

    Håller helt med. Det är med yttrande- och pressfriheten som med bostadsmarknaden. Att reglera gör bara ont värre.

  10. Kachina skriver:

    surgeoncommander

    Jag läser Aftonbladet. Tycker det är en bra tidning, men i det här fallet måste Helle Klein, med sin erfarenhet, haft ett rejält hjärnsläpp när hon blåste upp en story byggd på så simpla kort och obefintlig uppföljning.

  11. Kachina skriver:

    ”Det framgår av AB:s försvarsreaktioner och mottattacker att ytterligare sådana gränser kommer att överträdas i en snar framtid, övertramp som kommer att hårt pröva den juridiska gränsen till hets mot folkgrupp.”

    Det är vår uppgift att genomskåda varje yttring, var den än kommer ifrån. När vi börjar dra det i domstol, har vi misslyckats.

  12. arisplato skriver:

    En diplomats svar: ett mycket bra och i alla hänseenden bra svar.

  13. arisplato skriver:

    Hrm, välavvägt och bra skulle jag skriva.. (även om jag står för tautologin bra och bra i det här fallet).

  14. thegolanispy skriver:

    Tyvärr saknar Sverige helt och hållet yttrandefrihet. Ja, denna typ av vansinnesartiklar har inga problem att bli publicerade, man kan dra fram den en gång vart decennium, men försök publicera en pro-israelisk artikel till en svensk kultursida och med 99% sannolikhet blir du mobbad.

  15. knightone skriver:

    Nä det är inte förvånande att det är AB som vill ”beröra”.

    Aftonbladet blir mer och mer extremist-vänster för varje dag. Kulturvänstern har förmodligen kidnappat redaktionen då fler och fler artiklar påminner mer om Nordkorea, Kuba och Irans statliga massmedia än en normal västerlig tidning. Det är ingen skillnad på det som socialistiska Aftonbladet gör och det som Iransk statlig media gör.

    Synd att andra tidningar hellre kritiserar Regeringen än en konkurrent. Men så är ju Svensk massmedia i säng med varandra…

  16. jfredriksson87 skriver:

    Jag förstår inte varför detta skulle skapa så stor medial orolighet det är väl ingen som fridlyst judarna i israel från att kritiseras? att de israeliska soldaterna själva gick ut med uppgifter om massaker och krigsbrott va ingenting som fick något större genomslag men är väl minst lika ”antisemitiskt” som en misstanke om organstöld utförd av israeliska – judiska – soldater? om detta rört sig om protestanter och katoliker på irland som stal organ från endera parten hade detta förbisetts och förmodligen aldrig tryckts i AB ens. ska israel få slakta fritt bland palestinierna hur länge som helst med förintelsen och för länge sedan tystat förföljelse som ursäkt? de är och förblir krigsförbrytare sedan de drivit muslimska invånare ur israel med våld. judar eller ej.

  17. flyktingar skriver:

    OJ! Israel har verkligen tagit illa vid sig.

    De har liksom inte fattat den svenska sedvänjan hur fira pressfriheten genom spridandet av lögner och förtal.

    Dra ett djupt andetag, Carl. Besöket om 10 dagar lär bli svettigt… AB:s insinuata publikation har kidnappat den svensk-israeliska dialogen.

    Visste vi inte tidigare, vad man kommer att diskutera, så vet vi det nu. Det sista man kommer det att dryfta är hävande av Gazablockaden eller frysning av byggen på västbanken… Tacka antisemitbladet. Läs och begrunda:

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1109008.html

  18. paxxor skriver:

    Absolut, bra skrivet Herr Bildt! Nu undrar jag dock hur ni tänker med det svenska folkets ”frihet” när FRA-lagen på något sätt gått igenom? Hur respekterar man folks friheter genom en lag som ger makthavarna rätten att övervaka vem som helst, utan någon egentlig befogad misstanke för brott?

  19. chris200 skriver:

    @Kachina

    > Det måste finnas läkare och obducenter även i Palestina, så varför inte klippa upp de få stygnen och kontrollera om alla organ fanns kvar?

    En bra och saklig invändning. Synd att inte Israellobbyn motargumenterar på det viset istället för att ständigt vråla ”antisemitism”.

    Misstanken om kriminella och maffia som eventuellt skyldiga får stöd i följande blogginlägg där det bland annat skrivs om Dr. Yehuda Hiss som dömts skyldig till organstölder från 125 israeler. Det står även 18/8 på den bloggen om Alastair Sinclair, vars kropp återlämnades till familjen i Skottland med hjärtat borttaget.

    http://motbilder.se/2009/08/19/israel-centrum-for-organhandel/

  20. tangoviking skriver:

    Jo förhoppningsvis ska en stat stå utanför åsikter om artiklar i pressen så långt som möjligt. Likväl hoppas jag att en demokratisk stat står upp för folkgrupper då det kan förekomma negativ och hetsande propaganda men det ska såklart hanteras via de rätta instanserna.

    Faktum är att UD beklagade ett flertal gånger mohammedteckningarna till olika muslimska stater. Det tyckte jag var fel. Danmark gjorde ju som bekant inte det och stod alltså upp för sin pressfrihet. Danmark gjorde rätt.

    Utöver detta är det inte lika enkelt att särskilja staten israel och den judiska befolkningen som det är att särskilja sverige och dess befolkning. Därför är artiklar som kan spä på etniskt hat utan vettiga bevis eller meningsfullhet alltså av uppsåtligt ondo. Aftonbladet är väl medvetna om att artikeln skulle skapa kontrovers men i samma andetag skulle man aldrig demonisera den Iranska staten med bevislös propaganda utav en rädsla för raseri från islamistiska grupperingar.

    Vi kan ju snabbt påminna oss om hur mycket kritik en viss konstnär fick av massmedia om hur onödigt och farlig teckningarna var antingen genom ord eller så genom självcensurering genom att vägra publicering av bilderna i sin rapporteringen.

    DÅ var man rädd och tyckte det var onödigt. Men NU så ställer man sig bakom en känd propagandist som sprider lögner. Och istället för att kritisera författaren och självcensurera Aftonbladet så valde man att gå på en konfrontativ ställning.

  21. Visionären skriver:

    tdliblrac säger kl 6:29

    ”Som vanligt svarar Carl Bildt genom att inte svara. Frågan var hur Carl Bildt ser på den svenska ambassadörens (i Israel) agerande genom sitt pressmeddelande. Inte med en stavelse ger han uttryck för sin åsikt i frågan, så frågan kvarstår obesvarad.”

    Finns väl ingen anledning för Carl Bildt att kritisera henne offentligt. Skulle du vilja att du genom media får veta vad din chef har att säga om dig?

    V

  22. comitis skriver:

    Det du indirekt antyder är att ingen ska få lyfta fingret mot Israel och att Boström ska ta hänsyn till vilka reaktioner som faktiskt kan uppstå.

    En sak som du kan förvänta dig är att många (MASSOR) kommer att tala om Israel. Nu och i framtiden är det rätt att ta ställning; visa vart du står när det gäller mänskliga rättigheter och demokrati. Tala om för de som gör fel; att de i själva verket måste sluta göra fel – sedan handla därefter.

    Det finns så mycket som ska fram, innan Israel har betalat av sina ”lån”. Den som inte tar ställning för det som händer med palestinierna nu kommer aldrig (ALDRIG) bli förlåten av någon som i framtiden besöker ett möte för mänskliga rättigheter och demokrati. Du väljer att blunda, så gör det då.

    Vänta och se själv hur Israelerna försöker att försvara det oförsvarbara i Israels politik.

    Hyckleriet kommer bita er i röven ni politiker som leker tysta leken när det gäller Israel – den rasistiska judiska staten. När sanningen kommer fram Carl, då kommer du vara en av dem som valde att vara tyst och alla kommer veta det.

    En skam till utrikesminister. Snacka om att vara så påverkad av politiska intressen att han glömt av vad ordet ”mänskligt värde” betyder, att han inte kan kritisera förbrytare och extrema massmördare. Silken fis i rymden – minst sagt!

  23. sit999 skriver:

    Det är förstås så att ambassadören i Tel-Aviv inte har kränkt tryckfriheten. Tryckfrihetsförordningen förbjuder staten att hindra publicering eller i efterhand straffa för publicering (med ett par specifika undantag). Däremot finns inget förbud för företrädare för statsmakten att kritisera det pressen skriver. Det är snarast regel, och en förutsättning för att myndighetspersoner ska kunna delta i den allmänna debatten och till exempel diskutera sitt eget jobb. Carl Bildt har säkert också haft synpunkter på sånt som står i tidningen.

    Tjafset om kränkning av tryckfriheten är en rökridå för att Aftonbladet ska slippa diskutera den egentliga frågan: sin ritualmordsanklagelse.

  24. paraspora skriver:

    Helt rätt för en gångs skull plus skulle man tillägga att om Mosad och stjärngruppen skulle representera den judiska relitionen skulle alla vara starkt antisemitiska. Det historiska förföljesen av den judiska religionen kan ej legitimera Israels nuvarande politik och avståndstagandet såsom antisemitism. Beundrandsvärd är förvisso sammanhållningen i deras intresse ifrån tidningen DN men frågan jag ställer kan ambassadören uttalar sig för svenska regeringen och svenska folkets intresse.
    Är personen i frågan UD anställd eller tillsatt av den israeliska regeringen kommer ni att agera eller tillfaller det även under pressfriheten :-))

  25. [...] – Johan Ingerö: Per Gahrton (ordf. Palestinagrupperna) vinglar mellan två körfält – Carl Bildt förstår de starka känslorna mot Aftonbladet, men avstår från vidare kommentar – I SR:s Studio [...]

  26. boris99 skriver:

    På samma tema som Carl värnar press- och yttrandefriheten så ser vi fram emot hans insatser för den likaledes viktiga demokratiska rättigheten för ostraffade och ej brottsmisstänkta svenska medborgare att kommunicera utan att staten avlyssnar vad som sägs, registrerar vem som kommunicerar med vem, och var de befann sig när detta skedde.

    Det vore även fint om brottsutredningar sköttes av rättssystemet, och inte av amerikanska bolag som är blivande målsäganden.

  27. comitis skriver:

    http://www.svd.se/opinion/brannpunkt/artikel_3340075.svd

    Detta är vad som krävs av dig Carl Bildt. Ska du inte ta ställning för demokrati, mänskliga rättigheter och civila människor så kan du ju lika gärna hålla tyst.

    Varför försöka att ge ett svar när du ändå aldrig ger ett direkt svar på riktigt. Vad är detta för trams?

    När du ser en sak; tar du ställning. Du ser en sak som går emot civila människor och du tar ICKE ställning till civilt lidande. Du väljer att blunda. Varför inte ta ställning? Varför håller du käft?

  28. bildt69 skriver:

    Jag blir uppriktigt förbannad när jag ser att det fortfarande finns medborgare i detta underbara land, som är uppenbart överraskade över detta…!

    När och var har en politiker någonsin pratat klarspråk kring en ”het” potatis…! Politiker är enbart proteser av våran vilja – de är en önskan av vad som skulle kunna vara…

    I krig, världen över, har det alltid handlats med döda kroppar och organ – gå bara in på ”Flashback” för att bilda er en uppskattning för hur vanligt ”saker och ting” är..! Jag uppmanar er…!

  29. mic74 skriver:

    Ok, det finns mycket jag inte håller med Carl Bildt om, men det var ett bra svar. Jag skulle ha givit samma svar själv. Vad ska han säga då?

    Ni som kallar AB för vänsterstyrt, extremister m.m och att alla tidningar är vänster måste änsdå vara bra långt under isen. Visst, inte håller sig väl AB till sanningen direkt men det gör vbäl knappast resten heller? Man får ta det med 10 nypor salt. De flesta media jag läser är ändå ganska högerinriktade, så om man säger att alla media är vänster är det nog minsta sagt kortslutning någonstans. Fast det beror väl på var man anser att gränsen går, ”Endast kungen har rätt till liv” kan ju vara en extrem.

    Yttrande och tryckfrihet har vi inte i Sverige, enklaste att se är väl när det gäller rasister och nazister, de censureras och förbjuds överallt. Ok, jag gillar dem inte och har åsikter om deras hjärnkapacitet men det är en åsikt de företräder och det finns ganska många så de borde få göra det.

    Hets mot folkgrupp används lite för lätt av politiker, däremot så är åsikter om ekonomisk klasstillhörighet, ålder m.m tillåtet, bara lite när det gäller kön.

    Idag känner jag mig lite diskriminerad, medelålders etnisk svensk man, nu arbetslös. Det är bara att inse att man är sist i kön oavsett kompetens. Ok, jag är i allafall högutbildad ( till skillnadf från C.B) men det hjälper inte alltid. Och nej, inte konservativ och svårförändlig, jag driver sådant snarare, men det gör väl saken värre.

    Ändå, bra svar C.B. Du är en diplomat så helt rätt. Men EU borde ta över utrikespolitiken tycker jag. C.B. skulle nog få en plats även då.

  30. kenta34 skriver:

    ja ni; klein trycker väl vilken smörja som helst som gulliou, boström, feiler eller gahrton kokat ihop. Att grunda en hel artikel på hörsägen känns väl nog korkat men att sedan trycka den…ja du. Utan bevis känns det här ytterst tveksamt och att folk fortfarande tar folk som boström & co på allvar upphör aldrig att överraska. Bildt ger dock ett bra nyanserat svar som tydliggör vad han tycker om den smörja som tryckts utan att lämna diplomatrollen för mkt

  31. antykatoendek007 skriver:

    Herr Carl Bild låter som en skojare när han skriver detta:

    ”vi alla måste ha en stark vaksamhet mot allt
    som kan uppfattas som antisemtisim.

    Jag tycker också att det är någonting som vi
    faktiskt har på bredden av det svenska samhället.”

    Det enda man har ”på bredden” är att merparten av svenska medier, inkl. statliga SR och SVT är starkt, när intill gränslös antiisraeliska.

    Nästan hela vänstern, inkl. dess topp, Ohly, Sahlin och tokige Gahrton & Co är antisemiter. Det räcker om man läser t.ex. EU´s egen definition på antisemitism och ser vad alla dessa ”på bredden” gör, skriver, bablar…
    Carl Bildt själv som under sin några minuters promenad i en bråkdel av Hamasstan Gaza konstaterar vem som är skylldig är lika så antiisraelisk.
    Israel är substitut för juden. Antisemitismen har blivit rumsren igen och Sverige (liksom det pronazistiska Aftonbladet) har en tradition i det sedan början/mitten av förra seklet. Nu vaknar de till liv bevattnade av antisemit/-ism importen från MÖ.

  32. hubbardianen skriver:

    Carl Bildt svarar bra och kompetent. Yttrandefriheten måste bevaras och det mest essentiella stycket citerar jag här:

    ”Värnet mot omdömeslöshet, smaklöshet eller övertramp mot grundläggande värderingar i vårt samhälle ligger ytterst och bäst i den fria och kritiska diskussionen självt.”

    Helle Klein klingar judiskt och det tyder på viss partiskhet. Självklart är de tragiska öden som många judar blev utsatta för under andra världskriget fullständigt oacceptabla och en mycket grov kränkning av de mänskliga rättigheterna, men det innebär inte att individer som bekänner sig till judendomen inte ska kunna kritiseras vid eventuella misstankar om oegentligheter.

  33. [...] verka i Israel. De kräver från Sverige ett officiellt fördömmande av artikeln från regeringen. Carl Bildt skriver på sin blog varför det inte är möjligt att fördöma artikeln från regeringens håll. Och det är av samma [...]

  34. ruzirekta skriver:

    Bildt skriver ”Att artikelförfattarens anklagelser väckte starka känslor i Israel är inte svårt att förstå.”
    Vilka anklagelser?
    Artikeln påstår inte att organstöld skett, och anklagar därmed ingen.
    Däremot ställs en fullt berättigad fråga, nämligen
    varför obducerades pojken när dödsorsaken är uppenbar?

    Bildt antyder att artikeln och därmed frågeställningen är antisemitisk, omdömeslös, smaklös eller att den rentav utgör ett övertramp mot grundläggande värderingar i vårt samhälle.

    Att överhuvudtaget antyda något sådant är både fegt och arrogant.
    Eller så har den gode Bildt gått och blivit paranoid.

  35. karim021 skriver:

    Härligt Carl Bildt! På tiden att en politiker inte viker ner sig för Israel!

  36. arisplato skriver:

    Jag förstår inte vad ni har för problem med det här inlägget. Bildt uttrycker diplomatiskt förståelse för att man i Israel är känsliga för vad som kan uppfattas som antisemitism eller leda till förföljelse. Detta är vad Israel anklagade AB, samt i förlängningen Sverige, för, varför han nämner det. Han säger utan tvetydigheter att man i Sverige tar avstånd från antisemitism, alltid har gjort, men att man får diskutera allt och att detta ändå är bästa sättet att möta rasims. Han kommenterar inte innehållet i artikeln, vilket han inte bör göra, men säger mycket tydligt att:

    ‘På sina håll i Israel har man begärt att vi på ett eller annat sätt skulle ta offentligt avstånd från denna artikel eller t o m ingripa för att förhindra att en sådan artikel skulle kunna publiceras.

    Men så fungerar inte vårt land – och skall inte heller göra det.’

    Detta är en i diplomatiskt språk tydlig markering.

  37. thegolanispy skriver:

    Om jag sänder en pro-israelisk artikel, baserad på lättkontrollerade fakta, till AB:s ”kultur” – hur stor tror du att chansen är att den kommer in? Jag har god lust att prova experimentet.

  38. arisplato skriver:

    Jag förstår inte vad som hindrar dig. Publicera den här, om du tycker det är relevant på något vis.

  39. flyktingar skriver:

    Dedicerat till Kachina: (Jag har även skickat in nedanstående text till Helle Kleins blogg)

    Tänk om, alla ni som vill begränsa tryckfriheten.

    Se igenom den den insinuanta organstöldsartikeln vars innehåll gränsar till förtal.
    Det verkliga budskapet var det som sannerligen nu avslöjats, nämligen AB själv.
    Att AB är israelfientligt är allom bekant. De som ännu tvekade har fått en slutlig bekräftelse. Nytt är att AB:s israelfientlighet gränsar till hat och inte skyr några medel.
    Själv undrar jag hur högt upp i AB:s organisation beslutet att publicera är förankrat.

    Så blev återigen mediet det egentliga budskapet.
    AB och dess redaktörer har visat sina rätta ansikten.

  40. Kachina skriver:

    AB:s artikel gynnar inte Palestinas sak. Den minskar bara trovärdigheten för de rapporter som kommer därifrån.

    Israelvännernas ylande om antisemitism i Sverige, där det inte finns grogrund för detta, minskar bara trovärdigheten i de rapporter som kommer därifrån.

    Det finns i Sverige enskilda individer som hatar muslimer. Det finns enskilda individer som hatar judar.

    Men,….. i den stora massan finns inte grogrund för hets mot någon folkgrupp.

    Detta bör den israeliska regeringen informeras om och det är eran uppgift, israelvännernas, att framföra den informationen.

    Jag kräver friheten att kritisera Israel i sakfrågor, utan att jag som person anklagas för semitism. Jag kräver även friheten att kritisera Palestina i sakfrågor, utan att jag som person anklagas för att vara fiende både till islam och Palestinier.

  41. Lasse Wilhelmson skriver:

    En svensk utlandsambassadör företräder en myndighet som skall representera Sverige utomlands. Frågor som rör tidningars publiceringspolicy i Sverige ingår inte i denna myndighets instruktion. Det finns andra myndigheter och instanser i Sverige som handhar detta.

    Sveriges israelambassadör har därmed överträtt sina befogenheter, alldeles oavsett sakfrågan och därmed skadat Sveriges anseende utomlands. Därutöver har hon gått främmande makts ärenden i sakfrågan, vilket innebär ett försök till inskränkande av tryck- och yttrandefriheten i Sverige.

    Bägge dessa omständigheter torde vara tillräckligt för att hon bör kallas hem och ersättas med en annan person.

  42. smalanningen skriver:

    Helt riktigt Kachina. Jag kan inte se något mer syfte med artikeln än att möjligen etablera någon slags press mot Carl Bildt som vi vet är ett rött skynke för Aftonbladets ledning. Alla andra syften är högst tveksamma.

    Frågar man svensken på gatan vad man tycker om Israel/Palestina får man som sagt lite olika svar. Det finns ingen entydig svensk ståndpunkt för eller emot Israel/Palestina vilket jag anser vara bra.

  43. Kachina skriver:

    flyktingar

    Jag var trött i morse och såg inte ditt inlägg som tydligen kom in medan jag skrev.

    AB är aggressiv i sin kritik av Israel, men jag tror inte de är israelfientliga. De uttrycker en besvikelse, kräver mer av er som varit utsatta för ett av världens värsta illdåd, kräver att ni inte utsätter andra för den grymhet ni utstått.

    Artikeln i sig är ett hjärnsläpp. Den kan vi bortse från. AB uttrycker det vi är många som känner,….besvikelse.

    Jag skrev till Sharon på tidigt 90-tal och talade om samma som jag sagt i tidigare inlägg, uttryckte min besvikelse över att ni på Västbanken uppträder på samma sätt som nazisterna gjorde i Norge under WW2.

    Man straffar inte en motståndsmans familj i flera släktled och river deras hus. Ni kan bättre. Ni kan försvara er utan att ta till samma metoder som era tidigare förtryckare.

  44. oppti skriver:

    ”Om detta må ni berätta”
    Historien bör berättas och utredas så vi kan lära oss av den.
    Även om det är generande för de inblandade!

    CB är som vanligt klockrent undanglidande.
    Låt historiker eller kriminalare undersöka kropparna!

  45. florimond77 skriver:

    Det är märkligt att man jämför denna artikel med muhamedbilderna som var en satirisk nidbild. Denna artikel är ju något helt annat. Det är en saklig,skrämmande information som Israel omedelbart borde sätta igång att utreda istället för att som vanligt skrika om antisemitism.
    Vad är det som säger att Boström och Helle Klein är judehatare? Eller hela Aftonbladet en judehatartidning? Det är ju så man får det att låta. Det finns många frågor kring detta. Hur kan det komma sig att man åker iväg i helikopter med dödade unga män?
    Först skjuter man ihjäl dem sedan ska de obduceras. Bara det verkar ytterst misstänkt. Den oskyldige lär väl komma med advekata motuppgifter samt visa sin egen upprördhet. Så har inte varit fallt. Man kan förstå att Bildt i sitt ämbete inte kan säga allt som borde sägas men att ta avstånd från ambassadören var en stark markering.

  46. flyktingar skriver:

    Tryckfrihet är fantastiskt. Hur skulle vi annars få veta var medierna står. Genom sina val av nyheter berättar medierna för oss konsumenter, vilka de själva är.

    Genom sina val av texter gräver redaktörerna de gropar, som de sedan själva faller uti.

    Efter organstöldsfadäsen specifikt: Utse Helle Klein att vara ambassadör i Israel. I och med de senaste turerna är Sverige så kört i det landet, att det inte kan bli värre.

  47. olofmalmberg skriver:

    Kachina: Kan vara svårt att plocka upp kroppen om den är ingjuten i betong. Låter som det gjordes en ”estonia-plan”

    ”valdes några manliga släktingar för att utföra jobbet – att gräva jord och blanda cement.”

  48. liljagosta skriver:

    Lite väl mycket oväsen om den här saken tycker jag. Många anser tydligen att stöld av organ är mer klandervärd än stöld av ett helt land. Ropar man halleluja över det ena får man också ropa halleluja över det andra.

  49. Kachina skriver:

    Om släkten göt in liket i betong, är och förblir detta en skröna.

    Många falsarier byggs i propagandans tjänst. Det gäller bara att bygga så bra att publiken inte ser genom kulissen.

    Detta var ett fuskbygge som Helle Klein, med sin erfarenhet, aldrig borde ha publicerat.

  50. Kachina skriver:

    ”I och med de senaste turerna är Sverige så kört i det landet, att det inte kan bli värre.”

    Jag väntar mig klokare reaktion från det israeliska folket, på en tidningsfadäs. Om ni dömer svenska folket efter den, är det lika illa ställt med er som med konspirationsteoretikerna.

  51. nirrosenbaum skriver:

    Hej Carl

    Det är första gången jag bemödat mig med att läsa din blog och det är för att jag var intresserad av din åsikt, både när det gäller din reaktion ang artikeln, samt din reaktion ang regeringens respons till densamma.

    Tyvärr hittar jag inte din personliga åsikt ang artikelns innehåll. Som en svensk medborgare och väljare ligger det i mitt intresse och rättighet att veta din åsikt ang artikelns innehåll.

    Jag förstår att du är emot antisemitism och det är ett steg i rätt riktning, men jag vill veta redan nu (inte när det är dags för val) din åsikt ang artikelns själva innehåll.

    Som utrikesminister anser jag det är din skyldighet gentemot väljarna att ta en ståndpunkt i sådana frågor, särskilt när det berör en del av den svenska befolkningen.

    Angående själva artikel debatten.

    För två år sedan när Mohammed bilderna publicerades satte regeringen press på svensk media att inte publicera bilderna i Sverige. Varför gäller inte samma normer nu i detta ärende?

    Så om jag förstår dig rätt – total pressfrihet innebär att jag skulle kunna publicera Mohammed karrikatyrerna på hundratals svenska blog sidor, till en sådan utsträckning att media inte kan blunda för det?

    Jag tycker att det ledande styret i Sverige bör gå ut med ett offentligt ställningstagande i sådana frågor och inte gömma sig bakom neutralitet och ”politisk korrekthet”. Om regeringen tror att artikeln talar sanning om Israel, låt dom då fördöma Israels handlingar. Om regeringen tror att artikeln är falsk, låt dom då offentligt påpeka det.

  52. smalanningen skriver:

    ”Som en svensk medborgare och väljare ligger det i mitt intresse och rättighet att veta din åsikt ang artikelns innehåll”

    Riktigt sådär fungerar det inte med åsiktsfrihet.

  53. duffelbag skriver:

    Nice straw man argument. Nobody criticized free-speech. It is well understood that it is an underpinning of a democratic society.

    However, the free press is not immune from being called out when it features politically motivated articles that have little or no factual support.

    What Mr. Bildt seems to forget is that even in a democracy, libel is still forbidden.

    Is Mr. Bildt arguing that in the name of free speech, one can slander a politician, accusing him of being an organ trader, just because we don’t like him?!

  54. thegolanispy skriver:

    Jämför Sveriges innehav av kärnenergi – ingen skulle få för sej att påstå att vi tänker bygga bomber av det – med Syriens och Irans och Saddams uppbyggnad av reaktorer och anläggningar för förädling av radioaktiva isotoper som mycket väl kan användas för kärnvapen även om de också kan använda för energi, som de mycket enklare hade kunnat köpa färdigt, mycket billigare .

    Varenda person som känner Israel vet att det är lika lite sannolikt att de knycker kroppar för medicinskt ändamål, som Sverige. Se http://israelisverige.info/?p=355

    Eller ska Aftonbladet göra en stor undersökning hur många svenskar i omedelbart behov av en transplanterad njure, åker utomlands i stället för att vänta på svenskt lasarett tills de dör?

    Jag är inte säker på att AB har lust – de har en definitiv agenda som enbart gäller Israel.

  55. tangoviking skriver:

    Eh man kan ju inte låta bli att fundera på varför aftonbladets kultursidor är så enormt fulla av politik och hätska opinionsartiklar emot västlig politik.

    Som sagt. Kultursidorna.

    Förmodligen handlar det just om exakt det som blondiner gör för att få uppmärksamhet. Det är inte innehållet som är viktigt utan det gäller att få uppmärksamhet till varje pris.

    ”Beröra” är ju något AB och kulturarbetare gillar att tala om.

    Men det står ändå i skuggan av den riktiga vänsterextremism som existerar på AB och filtreras ut genom just kultursektionen. Att få dom reaktioner som nu uppstått var säkert högsta vinsten för redaktionen.

    Hyckleriet består dock.

  56. tangoviking skriver:

    duffelbag,

    You are right but you’re incorrect if you believe that the Swedish legal system allows for a government to condemn a publication.

    If in fact there is a likely legal violation there are proper courts to go to, independent from the government and the media.

    Please remember this was published by the cultural-section on a socialist tabloid.

    The Israeli reaction was not very wise. Israel gave the tabloid and leftist culture workers the exakt reaction they were looking for, in order to shame the Israeli and Swedish right-wing government.

  57. Kachina skriver:

    ”…..hätska opinionsartiklar emot västlig politik. ”

    Tja, varför inte? Menar du att västlig politik är oklanderlig och att USA är himmelriket?

    Visst, jag gillar ”friheten” i USA, men inte att svinen blir feta på bekostnad av mjölkkossorna som i sin tur svälter ihjäl.

    Förstår du? Det finns en inneboende djävul i ditt himmelrike. Den ”djävuln” tar jag mig rätten att kritisera.

  58. tangoviking skriver:

    Kachina,

    Blablablabla.

    Jag syftar på att det är knappast kulturarbete att sitta och gnälla på USA.

  59. mottip skriver:

    The argumentation is strikingly noble, but are you really able to freely say anything you want without becoming a target to violence? Is it not that you rather practice your freedom while dealing with those who play according to the rules of democracy and free speech rather than risk being targeted by those who do whatever they want knowing they risk nothing but your safty?

  60. Kachina skriver:

    tangoviking

    Ja, ja, det har du naturligtvis rätt i.

  61. yal67 skriver:

    I am a left wing journalist from Israel.

    For years Israeli as well as other journalists are trying to tell the truth – a horrible truth about what two people do to each other.

    The issue is not at all a free speech as you try to put it. No one is denying the right of the newspaper to publish lies. No one is asking that you close down the news paper (as your government did few years ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4700414.stm

    The issue is truth.
    The issue is incitement for violence.

    Can your government come out and tell people the truth ?

    If indeed Israeli soldiers are doing it – say so. If they don’t say they don’t. If you don’t know say that you don’t know and that you have no proof and ask the news paper to provide proof (other than ”the Palestinian said so”)

    Anyone who deals with middle east journalism surly knows that facts must be checked before publication that hamper peace is published .

    BTW, how may organizations that are bent on demonizing Israel does your own country finance ? (all in the name of free speech)

    When was the last time a Swedish paper published anything about what Palestinians are doing to each other ? about human rights in Saudi Arabia ?

  62. csiwers skriver:

    I agree 100% with you. Why should some countries or some groups be treated different from the rest? The free word is one of the most sacred things in our society and we have to be proud of that.

  63. Kachina skriver:

    Ingen bra idé, Avigdor Lieberman, att försöka sig på utpressning mot Carl Bildt och svenska folket. Ni har missuppfattat vårt kynne, så förvärra inte situationen.

    Vi tror INTE på allt som står i tidningen och är fullt förmögna att bilda oss en egen uppfattning. Ni överreagerar. Dämpa ner tonerna.

  64. deul skriver:

    som svensk så ställer man sig ganska naturligt neutral till ett brett spektrum av saker, men beklagligt blir det ändå någonstans när en ambassadör uttalar sig i en fråga, utan att varken ha folkligt stöd eller sin arbetsgivares medgivande…

  65. arisplato skriver:

    yal67: the minister who shut that website down was reported to the committee of constitional affairs. Either way it was very different since there is a law in Sweden prohibiting racial agitation, and the cartoons were arguably nothing but caricatural. In this case, First, there were clearly insinuations, but they can only be confirmed or denied by the Israeli government. Second, in Sweden we separate Israel and jews. To criticise Israel cannot per definition be *racial* agitation. Third, Swedish newspapers regularly report human rights abuses all over the muslim world.

    You must also understand however that the Swedish will to seek reconciliation with the muslim world is genuine, and the perception in Sweden is that Israel is not genuine in their comittment to this. Frankly, the entire middle east is just a bunch of children. Allah is the only true god; the jews are the chosen people. Let me spell it out for you: NO. Give it a rest.

  66. arisplato skriver:

    And incidentally, that committment implies that we already consider Israel a country that share our values; human rights grounded in all human beings equal value. It is much more disappointing when a country that could be magnanimous fails human rights standards (like the USA) than when a culture we consider in all essences backwards does.

  67. palestinagrupperna skriver:

    Vi är många som sett vidrigheter som begåtts av Israel under besök i Palestina, men som i fallet Boström tar upp så hänger frågorna i luften och Israel utreder inte, förnekar eller skuldbelägger. Detta hänger ihop. Hade Israel haft ett rättsystem värt namnet skulle fall som detta redas ut, och Boström skulle kunna avfärda historierna om organstöld om de rättsäkert bedömts som felaktiga. Nu är det svårt att släppa tanken och berättelserna, och bara under dödshot kan frågor ställas.

  68. yal67 skriver:

    Arisplato,

    Reporting about Israel is fine. No one is against reporting of wrong doing by Israel, or wrong doing by other entities around Israel. That is not the issue.

    The issue is using false stories to undermine the legitimacy of Israel right to exist. Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people – the only homeland for that people. Using an age-old antisemitic accusations so similar to the one used in the middle ages about Jews – in the time when the question of the right od the jewish people to have a country a homeland in the middle of the Islamic middle east – that is antisemitism and this undermine my own human rights – as a jew living in Israel.

    Sweden can not participate on one hand in an effort to bring peace and on the other to ignore such blatant accusations which at the end of the day serve as justifications for those who perpetrate violence against Israel and it’s citizens.

    There are those who are the preform the violence, there are those who support and encourage violence by providing the ideological justification for it and there are those who stand up against violence.

    Aftonbaldegt is clearly in the camp of those who give a platform for the hatemongers. The swedish government needs to choose if it is going to allow this or voice a clear view against those who provide justification for violence against Jews.

  69. arisplato skriver:

    OK, before getting into this, let me provide you with an analogy from political philosophy. GA Cohen writes of John Rawls _A Theory of Justice_ that he can see that if people gets greater incentive to work from getting more money, than there are pragmatic reasons to allow differences in income (Cohen was, as you may know, a socialist). However, he could not see how that made the resulting inequalitites _just_.

    Now, there is clearly a legitimate argument over the state of Israel’s right to exist. Many people in Sweden don’t see Exodus as a binding contract in ths context. The only reason I see not to discuss this are pragmatic. Israel does de facto exist, and has for some time now, and there is no way — even if the conclusion is reached that it was unjustly imposed in Palestine — it’s going away.

    You are right; we do not take for granted Israel’s right to exist, we understand the other side. But both sides need to get over that. In Sweden, people often side with the underdog, live with it. How many pro-Palestine news articles do you see in the USA?

  70. deul skriver:

    we´re proud that our foreignminister stand the ground…
    he does have the swedish people behind him when he makes a statement or ”not”…the swedish ambassador in telaviv does not.
    the case into the nut here is…she swedish people are not hate the jewish, but we are not agree the way israelians treat the palistinians…

  71. arisplato skriver:

    You could also say, given that the right of Israel to exist is literally never discussed in Sweden, that many seem to agree with assessments such as this one:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine/print?2

  72. rwachtfogel skriver:

    Yttrandefrihet är inte en ursäkt för att ignorera antisemitism. Du har också rätt att uttrycka dig.

  73. pholmgren skriver:

    Man kan ju öppna en konspirationsteori om varför intelligenta journalister publicerar en artikel som renderar helt förutsägbara reaktioner från israeliska politiker – just två veckor innan ett officiellt besök av Carl Bildt i landet?

  74. arisplato skriver:

    pholmgren: förvisso. Men i slutändan så kan man dra såna resonemang in absurdum. Det bästa är nog att låta publicera inom lagens gränser. T.ex. en med påhitt snarare än insinuationer hade ju inte varit ok.

    ['bara' två veckor.. (som anglofon så gör jag sådana små misstag själv alltsomoftast)]

  75. toppbozz skriver:

    Jag tycker att vi skall lämna denna pseudo diskussion kring pressfriheten och ge plats åt det verkliga problemet. För att citera vad Rolf Carlman, diplomat på svenska generalkonsulatet i Jerusalem, berättar för Peter Hadhammar i en annan artikel i AB:

    I vintras bombade Israel sönder stora delar av den civila infrastrukturen i Gaza. Nu fortsätter förödelsen av området genom en blockad där israelerna bara släpper in det allra nödvändigaste, så att befolkningen inte svälter ihjäl.

    – I stort sett all form av återuppbyggnad står stilla. Livet står still.

    – Vi har fått ta in mjöl men inte makaroner. Fråga mig inte varför. Israel kanske tycker att makaroner är onödig lyx.

    Israel tillåter inte internationella hjälporganisationer att föra in rör för avlopp och konstbevattning. Inte heller konstgödsel. Inte cement. Inte bensin.

    Basförsörjningen fungerar, sa Carlman. Folk hungrar inte. Det mesta som behövs för skolor, sjukhus och återuppbyggnaden rent allmänt släpps inte igenom.

    Fär mig är detta inte Gazaremsan annat än världens nu största koncentrationsläger där 1,5 miljoner människor hålls fångna utan hopp och utan möjlighet att påverka sina liv. Många hävdar att man inte kan jämföra 2:a värdskrigets fasor som tyskarna utsatte judarna för och det är rätt. Men….ett koncetrationsläger är ett koncentrationsläger även om inte fångarna där gasas ihjäl.

    Det är förvånansvärt hur det israeliska folket kan acceptera att utsätta ett annat folk för detta förtryck som de själva varit utsatta för.

    Jag hävdar med bestämdhet, även om det naturligtvis aldrig kan bli politiskt korrekt, att Israel i dag är en terroriststat genom den terror dom utsätter det palestinska folket för, både på Västbanken och i Gaza remsan.

    Vi hör dagligen om hur Palestineier behandlas vid de olika vägspärrarna på Västbanken, hur hundra åriga olivlundar skövlas av illegala bosättare, hur murar byggs för att etablera Israeliska staten på land som dom ensidigt annekterat och genom våld kvarhåller. Vi hör från våra egna diplomater hur Palestinierna i Gaza förhindras bygga upp ett fungerande samhälle igen.

    Är inte detta terror, vad är det då?

  76. arisplato skriver:

    Toppbozz: Ja. Se också Avi Shlaims artikel jag postade ovan från guardian. Den är bra av så många orsaker (han är jude som krigat för Israel, professor i int.rel. vid Oxford etc.) Det är sådant agerande från Israels sida som gör det svårt att vara objektiv. Liksom det är svårt att sätta sig in i al-qaida på ett objektivt sätt. Men till skillnad från den senare ser vi ju Israel som i grunden demokratiskt, varför vi ställer högre krav på dom. Kanske detta skulle påtalas mer.

  77. imriz skriver:

    Arisplato, How do you define ”the right of a country to exist”? What differs Israel right to exist than Sweden’s? If you say the fact Jews ”owned” this land, and were exiled is not a good reason to return this land to them, than how can you on the other hand justify the Palestinians claims? If you do agree that the land should be return to it’s orginal owners, than let me remind you that the Jewish people arrived to this land at around 1900~ B.C.E, when the first arab arrived during their conquest wars at around 930~ C.E. (Almost 3000 years later!!).
    (Please remember the fact that Philistines and Palestinians are *NOT* the same thing – The former originated from somewhere around Greece, and only setteled near the sea)

    Let me also remind you that Jews were always present in noticeable numbers (compared to the overall population) in that land.

    Are you saying that if someone will exile all the Swedish people from Sweden and kept them out for long enough, you will lose claim on the land? If that is your argument, than Israel only needs to last X years before the Palestinians claims will be null and void, right?

  78. tangoviking skriver:

    This is exactly the reason why Sweden should stay the heck out of anything with the middle-east.

    Hela regionen slösar med UDs resurser och skattebetalarnas pengar. Lämna skiten för gott.

  79. [...] använder tidningens ledning metoden anfall är bästa försvar. Man utser utrikesminister Carl Bildt till syndabock samt säger att detta är en [...]

  80. imriz skriver:

    Tangoviking, This is something for Sweden to decide – But the problem is not with mediation attempts, but with one-sided, biased and hypocritical approach.
    It is sad to see that there is no ”other” Europe. The same continent which gave the world two world wars, crusades, enslaved the Americas and so many other countries, and last but not least, the holocaust, is raising it’s ugly head again.

  81. arisplato skriver:

    imriz: historical claims is all we have at this point. Formerly, it was conquest. Sweden has been an independent country longer than any other country, and no one lived on the land before what was to become Swedes came here. That situation is unique. It is only true for Sweden (having maintained independence that is, otherwise it is also true of finns, russians, norwegians etc). I agree though; in the abstract it is difficult to lay claim to any land or property. Rousseau may have been right there. Either way, the problem with Israel is the way that country was established NOW. So what if the jews were run out of there 5000 years ago? By that logic, we could continously redraw the maps. It was the fact that it happened in modern times that some people have a problem with. I am literally indifferent. Seal off the middle east for all I care. Nothing but war and trouble the last five or six millennia.

  82. arisplato skriver:

    imriz: give me a break. Europe gave the world civilisation too, including the USA (whether you consider it civilised). We’re not forgetting Maimonides’ or Ibn Rusd’s role in bringing Aristotle to the attention of Aquinas, but the fact is that only in the west has there ever since been a history of free thought where philosophy supercedes theology. It’s a bit rich for anyone living in the middle east to complain about wars or injustices. Where are the rights strongest? Who takes care of their populations? When did the jews go on a crusade to help the world? You must be referring to Madoff or Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan or any of the jewish banks. Great job, You’re true champions of human rights and charity. Whingeing children is what you are. Your rhetoric is as hollow as the void behind it. I can give you a list of virtually all good things in the world in existence at this moment that originated in Europe.

  83. imriz skriver:

    arisplato, you didn’t really answer any of my questions, but if historical claims is all we have, than the Jews have the oldest _documented_ claims over this land, and therefore they should get the land. If there is limitation (by age) on historical claims, than again, all Israel need to do is wait and hold – Right?
    Regarding the independence point – Throughout the second world war, the Swedish policy favored the side currently having the upper hand – If this is the Swedish way of keeping independence, than I rather be opressed (I personally believe that one should break and not bend).

  84. Lasse Wilhelmson skriver:

    Here is the article in English in case you have not red it ….

    http://www.tlaxcala.es/pp.asp?reference=8390&lg=en

  85. [...] Utrikesminister Carl Bildt kommenterar detta på sin blogg och generaliserar och förklarar svårigheten i att ge kritik: Skulle jag ägna mig åt att [...]

  86. imriz skriver:

    Arisplato, the civilization started at the the middle and far east, mind you, while people in Europe were still living in caves – Learn your history.
    Regarding the Madoff comment – finally you are showing your real face. How many non-jews are imprisoned all over the world for financial frauds?
    When did Jews performed a genocide, or started an inquisition. How many charity orgs are funded by Jews?
    All the Jews ever wanted is to live in their homeland, but then they were exiled (and guess by whom – Europeans, of course), after that they only wanted to live in peace in their exile (Even when they were abused, and degraded. Let me remind you that in Europe, during the middle ages, Jews were not allowed to own land), but then, the natives started to kill them (Europeans again), so the Jews went back to their homeland (which existed far before Sweden – same goes for the Jews as an org. ethnic group), and now, some people question their right to exist there – who are those people? Correct, Europeans all over again.
    My mother is Lithuanian by origin, and my father is Polish by origin – Do you know what the other kids used to tell them when they were younger? that they should go to Palestine, because this is the place of the Jews, not Europe – Now, you are telling me this is also not the place for Jews?

    If you choose to respond, please, don’t be like that newspaper your goverment is refusing to condemn, and bring numbers and facts.

  87. tangoviking skriver:

    imriz

    Sweden has been a leftist country for most of the last 70 years. Unfortunately. The media is dominated by leftists.

    So yes it’s one sided. This article could only be published with such strong national media-backing thanks to the leftist-friendly climate in Sweden.

    It’s even more easy since we have a RW-gov and the leftists try anything to make them look bad and to waste its time dealing with ridicilous media storms than conduct normal policy.

    Socialists are hypocrites and cowards yes we know but not all Swedes are socialists. Far from it. But the media and political institutions is very much so. It’s like a cancer on our society.

  88. orust skriver:

    Vilken storm på bloggen – kanske rekord?

    Organhandel är en trist företeelse som funnits i åtminstone 20 år och ett område där avarter frodas på många håll i världen. Uppgifterna borde utredas snarare än okritiskt fördömas.

    Byt ut ambassadören i Tel Aviv – hon har gjort bort sig!

  89. imriz skriver:

    Tangoviking, thank you for clarifying that – It is very encouraging to know people like that do exists.
    I am not against socialisim – far from from it – I was born and raised in a Kibbutz, where I practiced far more extreme socialisim.
    On the political map, I define my self as left winged, with tendencies to the center. I strongly believe it is Israel right to exist as a Jewish nation, mainly because history as proven that the Jewish people cannot entrust their fate in any one else’s hands. I do believe in peace with the Palestinians, and that we should give them some land – Not because I believe they have an historical claim here, but because de facto, they are here to stay, and any other solution will endanger me and my sibilings. Having that said, it is important to remember that the ”other side” declared many times that they would not be satisfied with anything less than the whole country (please remember that they had several opportunities in the past to sign a peace contract and get a country of their own).

  90. Kachina skriver:

    I was here first.
    No, I was here first.

    You hit first.
    No, You hit first.

    Abrahams son´s, the arab and the jew, playing in the sandbox. They never grew up. They are still fighting after 4000 years.

    I belive that the arab was the firstborn son.

    Tell me now, who was there first?

  91. [...] Carl Bildt inte var på fel sida av den politiska skalan, för han är fullständigt lysande, och så även i denna röra. Någon annan jag inte kan få nog av, sen jag nyligen upptäckte henne, är Anna Ekelund, som [...]

  92. imriz skriver:

    Kachina, Yhismahel is half-egyptian (is mother was an egyptian slave), and not arab at all (if you know your history, there isn’t much between the egyptian of today and the egyptians of the past). The more important question, if you brought it up, is whom _Abraham_ choosed to inherit the land.
    Also, your continent as been fighting for quite some time too (again, remember the two world war it has just recently started?), and is responsible for few other notorious atrociousities in the modern and older history.

  93. imriz skriver:

    Regarding Gaza, which I see that is concerning some of the responders – One should compare the status in Gaza and in the West Bank and ask why the huge difference – The answer is quite simple, when Israel eased the military pressure on the west bank, and made trust building steps, it was not abused to attack Israel. When Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip, the rockets toward Israel soon came after. Would you open your borders to a neighbor which exploits this to attack your childrens?
    Why don’t you condemn the terror attacks on Israel from the Gaza strip – Can’t Israel demand relative security in exchange of goods? Can’t the Palestinians do trust building gestures?

  94. tangoviking skriver:

    imriz, yes all socialism is not bad and of course in Sweden there’s a battle between the far-left, left, and centrist socialists. What is bad is wish of some to start a sh-tstorm just to be a annoyance. The tabloid itself we’re talking about is normally more centrist-socialist but the culture-section is filled with people who has a romatic view socialism where USA is the great satan and in order to get more attention they use provocative articles.

    So this was a Socialist tabloid. Culture-section. Privately owned by Norwegian Schibsted group who own alot of the media in Scandinavia. Another big owner is the Swedish socialist trade union LO.

    What they write about Swedish politics is also very offensive to some of us, like how we’re murdering civilians in Afghanistan to help the US get more oil when we’re in fact supporting a UN (ISAF) mission.

    You should just hear what Swedish soldiers has to say about this tabloid…

  95. comitis skriver:

    Hyckleri. Är du så svag, en sådan fis i rymden att du inte ens kan ta ställning?

    Vi är bättre av utan dig som utrikesminister.

  96. donquixotte skriver:

    BILDT’S PLOY AGAINST INTERNATIONAL PROTOCOL

    Carl Bildt’s ploy goes against government and international protocol. He cannot have it both ways.

    That is, letting his Israel ambassador denounce the article, while he at the same time supports the freedom of speech on his PRIVATE blog (without taking a stand on the issue itself). The official government homepage Regeringen.se has still made no comment on the whole subject, which Israel is now using to soil and discredit Sweden’s neutrality under WW2.

    Does Carl Bildt understand the seriousness of the evolving situation?

    Perhaps it was no coincidence that Carl Bildt in January 2008 attended a hard-core Israel national security conference in Tel Aviv aimed against the Palestinians. The UD homepage touted then the conference as a mutlinational security event, implying that Bildt was a great peacemaker.

  97. flyktingar skriver:

    Jag har följt smutskastningskampanjerna mot Israel under 3 årtionden bli allt mer explicit och samtidigt allt mer rumsrena. Nu har Israelhatet vuxit sig så start att det märks utanför Sveriges gränser. Jag förutsade en sådan utveckling för ett par veckor sedan och blev anklagad för paranoia. Paranoia eller ej, nu är det verklighet. Intressant att följa hur denna kris förlöper.

    Carl Bildt löper stor risk att krossas mellan de sårade israelerna och sin lojalitet mot det smaklösa antisemitbladets (AB) ideliga åberoande av tryckfrihet.

  98. Kachina skriver:

    Remember, it is not the Minister of Foreign Affair or the Ambassador ‘s assignment to comment on a newspaper article.
    Israel’s reaction is overdriven and direct improper. Neither Carl Bildt, nor the Swedish people, have any responsibility for the articles Aftonbladet publishes.

  99. chris200 skriver:

    @imriz

    > If there is limitation (by age) on historical claims, than again, all Israel need to do is wait and hold – Right?

    Which is what Israel has been doing for 60 years. However, in this age of international law the state of Israel remains illegal until the indigenous population – the Palestinians – recognize and thus accept the legality of the state of Israel. Which explains why recognition is the top demand.

    > All the Jews ever wanted is to live in their homeland, but then they were exiled (and guess by whom – Europeans, of course)

    All the Palestinians ever wanted is to live in their homeland, but then they were exiled in 1948 (and guess by whom – zionist Europeans, of course)

    > Not because I believe they [Palestinians] have an historical claim here

    The Palestinians lived as clear majority in their homeland for 1400 years before they were exiled 1948. That gives them the only valid historical claim. Unless one believes that ”God’s will” overrides human law.

    > the ”other side” declared many times that they would not be satisfied with anything less than the whole country

    Israel has declared many times they would not be satisfied with anything less than all of Jerusalem, 85-90% of the land, and Jewish-majority population. In other words, the whole country.

  100. Kachina skriver:

    flyktingar

    Ni skadar er själva genom att överdriva antisemitiska strömningar i Sverige. Är alla som kritiserar era handlingar antisemiter? (Alltså, kritiken riktas inte mot er som personer eller folkgrupp, utan mot en specifik handling.)

  101. un2here skriver:

    Frågorna kvarstår dock fortfarande:

    1) Varför skär Israelerna upp sina offer, när det är så uppenbart att de dött av akut blyförgiftning?

    2) Varför måste detta fenomen till varje pris tystas ner med en stort orkestrerat ”stackars Israel” kampanj?

    3) Vad har CB – eller någon annan i Svenska regeringen – med den saken att göra?

  102. flyktingar skriver:

    Till oskulden un2here:

    Se och lär.

  103. Kachina skriver:

    Av påstådda 50 uppskurna offer har INGEN öppnats för att se vad som saknas. Varför?

  104. mrmhalland01 skriver:

    hmmm…min kommentar försvann..
    Kanske för många som skriver samtidigt ?

    Urban Ahlin har uppenbarligen börjat sin valrörelse redan.
    Nu KU-anmäler han utrikesministern för att försöka påverka pressen.

    Frågan är vad man vinner på att gå ut offentligt och erkänna att man inte är läskunnig, som aspirant på utrikesministerposten.

    Allt enl.Expressen.

  105. Kachina skriver:

    Jag hade två rävar lekandes utanför mitt köksfönster igår kväll. Jag tror jag skall döpa dem till juden och araben. Rävar var de bägge, men bara en hade vit svanstopp. Vilken skall vara juden och vilken skall vara araben.

    Fy f-n, vad världen är less på er.

  106. yal67 skriver:

    People like Avi Shlaim, Uri Davis have made a considerable personal career by being ”an Israeli” or ” a Jew” which is against Israel. People like this exist in every country, in every society – yet in most place such people do not get such an echo. When someone like this is both a Jew and against Israel – this can lead to a very profitable academic career – so excise me if I simply ignore them and much rather deal with the facts.

    Israel’s ”right to exist” is not the whole issue. The simple issue is ”Does the Jewish people has a right a country” (a sovereign country) ?

    Don’t take this question likely. When you dig into the middle east issue – if you are honest enough – at the end it boils down to this question: Is the Jewish people the same as the Swedish people ? the Danish people ? The french ? The Hindu ? all these people have a country they call home. Granted their country can be religious or secular but it has the identity of their ethnic and cultural background and it has sovereignty over some piece of land. Should the Jewish people have the same right ?

    BTW, please note that the same right is for the Palestinian people – although the term ”Palestinian people” never existed prior to 1960s – by now their right is undisputed.

    I don’t dispute the Palestinian right and I hate getting into historic arguments but I would just point out that while some Jews and some Palestinians can claim to be indigenous to this land most others are immigrants or born to immigrants. It is not a coincidence that the UN consider anyone who migrated to Palestinian from Syria; Jordan or Egypt until 1946 a ”Palestinian” refugee. (most btw, now live in Jordan)

    On top of that let me point out that many countries around the world have non indigenous people. If we are all to go back to where we came from it is going to be very crowded in this crater in Kenya where humanity was born. So let us not confused the right of the Jewish peiople with claims (which are mostly untrue) about who ”owned” this land 3000 years ago.

    The real issue is that if Jews have a right for a homeland where would it be ?

    Surly Israel comes to mind (for various historic and pragmatic reasons, as well as by international law)

    So if Israel has a right to exist – as a sovereign land ruled by the Jewish people – would the other people in the area agree to that right so that border issues can be settled ?

    I afraid the answer is no.

    Most Muslims and Arabs are unwilling to let Jews ”own” a part of the land viewed by muslims as ”Islamic Wakf” and until they do there is no way this whole ”peace process” going to move forward.

    Now you in Scandinavia can continue to quote Shlaim or others or claim that IDF does this and that or that the ”indigenous” people are this people or not that people – but at the end of the day none of this is going to solve the issue.

  107. yal67 skriver:

    >>>Israel has declared many times they would not be satisfied with anything less than all of Jerusalem, 85-90% of the land, and Jewish-majority population. In other words, the whole country.

    Israel has withdrawn from Sinai, from the parts of Lebanon, Israel ended all land dispute with Jordan. Israel removed settlers from gaza strip – so look at Israels action for the past 35 years it just left areas instead of the expansion you all seem to notice.

    If there was credible peace ofter on the table – on that ensure both Israel security and it’s identity (i.e. recognizing Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people) I am sure Israel will give up more land for such a deal.

    BTW, it is the Sabbath now and I am typing into my computer because i am like most Israelis a secular Jew – which mean my identity, my cultural and ethenic background is Jewish but I am not releigious at all.

  108. Kachina skriver:

    ”et in most place such people do not get such an echo.”

    YOU created the echo from AB;s article. WE wouldn´t have noticed, If YOU hadn´t yelled so loud.

  109. donquixotte skriver:

    Interesting, I posted a comment here on Carl Bildt’s ‘ploy’ about one hour ago, and it has been eradicated by the blog administrator.

    So much for Carl Bildt’s treasured ‘freedom of speech’.

    There are fortunately other ways to make the point and the seperate point about hypochracy.

    No doubt this comment will also be censured.

  110. un2here skriver:

    Kachina säger: Av påstådda 50 uppskurna offer har INGEN öppnats …

    När Benazir Bhutto mördades fick vi lära oss att själva obduktionen (i samband med utredningen) i sig var en skymf mot offret.

    Det skulle kunna vara en anledning.

  111. un2here skriver:

    @donquixotte

    The wordpress software is buggy – especially when the database is under load – and sometimes deletes the wrong comments unintentionally.

  112. yal67 skriver:

    Kachina,

    During the time of 2000-2009 over 4 million people were killed in Congo internal war. How much written is Swedish papers about that vs about 0.1% of that number that were killed in the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

    Do you even know what goes on in south Sudan now a days, hundreds of thousands have to flee their homes after villages raided, men killed , girls raped. All to make way for the new oil pipe.

    And AB writes a shitty ”op-ed” with photos of a body from 1992 in Israel and ties the story to a rabbi crook in NJ 2009 …..

    But that is Ok – you can claim I made the echo.

    By echo I meant that no other country in the world has so many foreign journalists – you know why ? it is much more convenient to sit in a cafe in Jerusalem – a totally western city – and type on a lap top connected by wi-fi some war story about IDF than it is to travel in dirt roads for 1000s of miles in Sudan.

    You know how I know ? I work with those journalists. I know how much they like LIVING in Israel while they continue to write what the world media expect them to write.

  113. mrmhalland01 skriver:

    Israeler är upprörda för att en Svensk tidning anklagar dem för organstöld.

    Ja…det var riktigt dålig smak av AB, men, har vi inte glömt en sak ?
    De har trots allt mördat dessa människor !

  114. [...] Bloggat: Svensson, Röda Malmö, Spånbinge, Proletärbella, Björnbrum, Jinge, Progressiva USA, Alla Dessa Dagar, LOKE, Emretsson, Utsikt från höjden, Kent Persson, Opinionsbloggen, jj.n, Hell-man, Helle Klein, [...]

  115. Kachina skriver:

    They write stories that sells, makes their employer happy and fills their wallets.

    We swedes knows that. We are NOT stupid. We read and ask, why and who is gaining from it. I read the AB story and didn´t believe a shit of it, because the palestinians had buried the evidence fifteen years ago.

    YOU israelis make big noice about it, only to relieve your belief that swedes are stupid.

    I do not believe that 4 milj. were killed in Kongo between 2000-2009. That is probably estimated and far off target.

  116. un2here skriver:

    yal67 writes: I know how much they like LIVING in Israel while they continue to write what the world media expect them to write.

    I know these people too, and most of them just echo the handouts they are getting from the foreign ministry … And then continues sipping on their whiskey o’ rocks in the hotel lobby.

  117. flyktingar skriver:

    Sverige är en av de största bidragsgivarna till den palestinska myndigheten, 700 miljoner kronor per år.

    Detta åtagande kan i praktiken inte göras kompatibelt med neutralitet i Israel-Palestinakonflikten. Carl Bildt vet att Sverige därmed blivit irrelevant som fredsmmäklare i mellanöstern. Återstår att betala och ducka i debatten.

    Israelhat kommer att utgöra ett slagträ i valet 2010.
    Tyvärr är otydlighet ingen merit i valrörelsen.

    Med 17000 svenska judar och 500 000 svenska muslimer, återstår att antingen ta upp kampen mot den förtäckta antisemitismen och förlora valet eller återfalla i folkhemspragmatism av gammalt gott snitt. Det senare alternativet skulle inte förvåna någon, varken i Sverige eller utomlands.

  118. eudemokraten skriver:

    Att media vinklar vet vi ju alla och därför förtjänar media uppmärksamhet och kritik, av alla demokratiska medspelare, en debatt som kanske de flesta helst vill slippa därför att media skulle slå tillbaka mot varje försök till uppläxning, men så skall en öppen debatt fungera i en demokrati. Även media måste kunna kritiseras och beklagas, annars vore det ju ruskigt och liktydigt med diktatur (vilket vi kanske har i Sverige idag).

    Vad gäller de ihopsydda palestinierna borde Aftonbladet kanske ha övervägt möjligheten att Israel behövde träna sina kirurger på fältet, och då duger endast realistiska krigsskador. Sverige använder, eller använde, ju grisar för att lära sig och kunna behandla skadorna av höghastighetsvapen.

    Det kan finnas en naturlig förklaring till (demokratin) Israels agerande, rutinmässig obduktion syftande till ökad kompetens, en kompetens som även kommer palestinska offer tillgodo eftersom Israel även tar emot och behandlar krigsskadade palestinier.

    Därmed har den här debatten hyfsats.

  119. un2here skriver:

    flyktingar säger: Med 17000 svenska judar och 500 000 svenska muslimer, återstår att ..

    inse att erat största problem är att Svensson har tröttnat på sionistiska myter?

  120. un2here skriver:

    Sverige använder, eller använde, ju grisar för att lära sig …

    Jo, men grisar är ju väldigt likt palestinier, i viss belysning eller hur?
    :-D

  121. imriz skriver:

    Chris200, Quoting only small parts of the whole text and taking the sentences out of context is degrading, for you.
    The text targeted a specific claim that the Jews as no claim over the land – and then presented a question on how one should determine claim over a land.
    If you claim it’s should decided by who lived their earlier, than it’s the Jews – You might be suprised to hear, but there are a lot of archaeological findings and documents that prove that Jews lived here from somewhere around 1900 BCE. So how can you claim only the Palestinians has historical claims? That is just plain ignorance on your part – If you decide that by who lived their RECENTLY, without taking into consideration HOW they got the land (Let us remember the muslims also took this land by force from previous inhabitators), than in X years the Palestinians claims will be null and void – Do we agree on that?

    On your other comments, regarding Israel willingness to make peace, Please see yal67’s clueful comments.

  122. Kachina skriver:

    ”Därmed har den här debatten hyfsats.”

    Ja, det var ett trovärdigt inlägg.

    @flyktingar

    Jag tror inte att antisemitismen kommer att påverka svenska väljare. Om Mona tänker vinna valet genom att flörta med palestinier, har hon misstagit sig grundligt.

    Om valrörelsen skulle komma att handla om I/P-konflikten kommer inga väljare till vallokalerna. De sitter hemma och spyr.

    Jag kräver en ursäkt från er utrikesminister eftersom han behandlar oss svenskar som idioter i behov av israelisk förmynderi.

    NI, som har grälat med grannen i 62 år, behöver förmyndare.

  123. Kachina skriver:

    imriz

    So, you mean that it is time for the indians to claim America, and the same population to claim Scandinavia?

  124. [...] får konsekvenser för den Svenska amassadören i Israel, för vår utrikesminister och borde med all rätta sätta vågsvall i världpressen. UD gör inget offentligt uttalande, utan [...]

  125. Kachina skriver:

    I say that it is impossible to say who is right and who is wrong in the IP-conflict.
    The Middle East is an area filled with psychopaths . We should surround it with a wall and then ignore them.
    I do not mean this. I´m just telling you what I feel. Sixty-two years of war and you are the shame of humanity.
    Why don´t you try to act like humans?

    And,…..I demand an apology from the israeli foreignminister to the swedish people. We are NOT responsible for stories published in swedish press.

  126. deul skriver:

    Carl Bildts uteblivna kommentarer i ämnet är ett klockrent svar på mångas frågor…sådana attacker på våran stolt bevarade yttrande och pressfrihet står under i nivå att besvaras av en utrikesminister av värld…

  127. fredad skriver:

    Det är tryggt att veta att aldrig blir det så många kommentarer på statsministerns blogg som när det rör Israel och judarna. Den svenska indignationen står i sitt esse. Antisemitiska inlägg publiceras regelbundet på CB’s blogg utan ngt ingripande. Varför skulle det ingripas? Svaret är idag tydligt.
    I morgon är det samtal och stormen lägger sig – vi snart se den avslutande lugnade kommentaren.
    Vad vi bör vara vaksamma på är mängden islamofobi, xenofobi och antisemitism som kommer att överskölja landet inför nästa valrörelse. Regringen Rheinfeldt har genom sin utrikesminster gjort klart att den svenska principen gäller och står fast.
    Glöm bara inte att skydda de egna medborgarna för folkhets under politisk flagg från extremvänster och extremhöger. Det finns som bekant alltid gränskonflikter – även härhemma.

  128. yal67 skriver:

    un2here,

    they echo the handouts from groups like ICHAD. I personally know many foreign corespondents who continue sipping on their whiskey o’ rocks in the hotel lobby while writing on ”matrix of control” in the west bank (just an hour drive away)

    I also know foreign corespondents who cheered when the Lebanon war started. Their reason: They don’t have to cover Gaza (where Hamas closed down all the local water holes where they can still get beer ) and instead booked their Aman-Beirut flight fantasizing (in front of me) on the good time they would spend in Junya. (a port in Lebanon Christian area – famous for nightlife) These people have no shame. They don’t care if people will be killed as long as they can have their beer.

    And yes 3-4 millions HAVE been killed in Congo during the time 1/1000 of that were killed in the middle east:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War

    it is so typical of the average Euriopean to doubt my numbers on this because based ion what you read you sire here 100 times more about Israel than on Congo.

  129. imriz skriver:

    Kachina,
    We are not acting like humans? What exactly do we do that doesn’t qualify us as humans, and how exactly do you want us to do?
    Regarding the shame – It doesn’t mean a lot coming from a person whose country provided weapons and materials to the Germans during WWII, while claiming for neutrality, and then when the tide has shifted, switched sides.

    By the way, If you want to pull the plug on Israel, it means that Europe, and a whole lot of arab countries has a lot of land and property to give back to Jews who will go back to exile (land and property they had to leave behind when they left back to Israel).

  130. un2here skriver:

    Nej deul, CB gör rätt när han avstår från den här debatten. Jmf med Fogh Rasmussen under Muhammed-krisen, då Rasmussen hänvisade till Jyllands Postens redaktion för klagomål.

    Endast diktaturer tar ansvar för vilken ”pravda” som skrivs i landets tidningar.

  131. imriz skriver:

    Oh and Kachina, by psychopaths you mean people who do something like [choose a random atrociously deed done by Europeans in the last 500 years - You have quite a lot to choose from]? Nothing Israel has done or will do will ever compare to the horrors of Europe.

  132. yal67 skriver:

    >>>>The Middle East is an area filled with psychopaths . We should surround it with a wall and then ignore them

    I guess next you will suggest the same about Malmö and later about some areas in other cities in Sweden….

  133. Kachina skriver:

    imriz

    Didn´t you notice that I said Middle East and th I/P.conflict. I did NOT address Israel only.
    Sixty-two years of war is a shame for both of you and humanity. You are acting like amygdala controlled animals.

    Get even. NOW!!!

  134. yal67 skriver:

    another great example for freedom of speech: http://www.arabeuropean.org/netherland/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=207&Itemid=1

    yes it is their right to deny the holocaust. I am serious I am for that right.

    But officials should stand out and denounce those who spread lies.

  135. Kachina skriver:

    OK, lets kill our neighbors. We have been killing for the last fivehundred years, the last four thousand years,…so why stop. Let the I/P-conflict set the standard for the rest of the world.

    Good Night

  136. imriz skriver:

    Kachina,
    yal67 gave a pretty good examples and facts about Israel willingness for peace. How do you expect Israel to deal with an enemy that wants to eliminate its very existence? History proves that when a *REAL* peace offer came, Israel took it, and gave back land in exchange.

  137. un2here skriver:

    yal67 says: And yes 3-4 millions HAVE been killed in Congo during the time …

    You are saying: ”Look over there, a birdie”

    But this thread is not discussing anything Congo. It is discussing:

    a) whether certain Palestinian allegations of bodypart theft could be true.

    b) whether CB should or should not comment on what an editor of a tabloid representing the current opposition in Sweden chooses to publish.

    Can we get back on track now?

  138. imriz skriver:

    Kachina,
    No, but a fair stand would be to understand and declare that Israel has every right to exists, and that the Palestinians should accept that and agree to end all viloence in exchange for a country.
    You know that Israel and the PLO already had a draft ready, but {some fractions of} the Palestinians are just aren’t ready to declare that with that they are ending the conflict – The Hamas said it will never accept Israel, and that the best thing it can offer is a long cease fire.
    Did you know that?

  139. chris200 skriver:

    @imriz

    > If you claim it’s should decided by who lived their earlier, than it’s the Jews

    The Jews at the beginning of time? There were other people there before the Jews, and others before them.

    > If you decide that by who lived their RECENTLY, without taking into consideration HOW they got the land… than in X years the Palestinians claims will be null and void – Do we agree on that?

    The history of human society is full of forceful land grabbing and (to a lesser extent) ethnic cleansing. In this way Sweden in the past came to rule a large part of Northern Europe, only to lose that land in the same way. There are also claims that Sweden contributed a little to the Crusades in 1095-1272, when European Christians established the Kingdom of Jerusalem on land forcefully taken from the Muslims, a move eventually reversed.

    As of the 20th century, the international community decided to make a break with such medieval practices and encode into international law a modern approach to (among other issues) territorial disputes. This modern approach respects the right of self-determination of local and indigenous populations, and outlaws land grabbing and ethnic cleansing. This spelled the end to the legitimacy of any new crusades, including the Zionist one.

    Whether or not the Palestinians’ legal rights are to eventually expire will depend on the will of the international community, since these laws are defined and upheld by that community.

  140. imriz skriver:

    un2here, due to the biased winds coming from Sweden in the past few years (let us not forget it is one of the biggest finciaial supporters of the Palestinians, and the EU/UN it self already suspected some of the support money goes to terror), Israel did expect an official to say something in regards.
    Sweden proved to be un-netrual – I guess some things never change. I wish you good luck with the growing muslim minority (soon to be majority) in Sweden – In less than 100 years they will claim land in Sweden it self, and we will see how YOU deal with that :)

  141. Kachina skriver:

    yal67, imriz

    I understand your point, but I have had enemies and turned them into friends by showing them a better life and better opportunities by trading instead of fighting.

    They need help (Marshall-aid)to build their own country.
    They need YOUR help by extended trading and employment over the border.

    The peace will come when they have no time to figt because they are working to pay mortage on the house or the car.

    There is NO WAY for western europe to let ANYONE eliminate Israel. But YOU have to stop stealing land on the West Bank.

  142. imriz skriver:

    Chris200, then the Ottomans should control this land? Or maybe the British? It was quite long ago since ARABS owned this land.
    No, Jews didn’t live in Israel since the begining of time, but they are the oldest ethnical group still in existence which has documented proofs that they owned this land – Heck, even the exiles are documanted in few seperate documents. In this context it is also important to say that even the Persian (Iranians) acknowledged at the time that this is the land of the Jews and allowed the Jews to return from the first exile by the Babylonians, and gave them (the Jews) relative autonomy.

  143. imriz skriver:

    Kachina,
    I disagree with the term ”stealing”, but I do accept the fact major parts of the west bank will be given back in exchange for peace – You will be suprised to hear most Isralies agree with that too. The main argument is with the large existing settelments, and their natrual growth – in that draft I mentioned the main idea was land swapping (i.e. swap large settelments behind the ”green line” with large arab settelments in the ”green line”). Now, the financial status in the west bank is getting better every day – The problem doesn’t lie in the west bank, even if that’s what the media in your country want you to think – the problem is with the extreme fractions, mostly in Gaza which doesn’t accept Israel right to exists, AT ALL.

  144. un2here skriver:

    imriz says: In less than 100 years they will claim land in Sweden it self, and we will see how YOU deal with that

    Yes, I believe Churchill forgot to brief the Palestinians at the time of the horrors of immigration by hateful strangers with odd religious beliefs.

    The Palestinian refugees around here OTOH are well-educated as well as -motivated and do not pose a problem to Swedish society. To the contrary one might be inclined to say.

  145. daevlin skriver:

    Mycket bra skrivet Carl. Håller med dig till punkt och pricka.

  146. imriz skriver:

    un2here, again, twisting the facts – remember the partioning plan and what side rejected it (hint – it was not the Jews). The solution could have been there – both for the Arabs conquesters and to the Jews who returned to their homeland after long exile and being butchered in Europe. But, the Arabs choosed to decline that solution because they thought they can exile the Jewish people once AGAIN. I guess they were wrong.

  147. mrmhalland01 skriver:

    Ingen kommenterar Ahlins fåniga poängjakt ?

    Är det verkligen någon som håller med honom ?
    Han är ju uppenbarligen inte läskunnig !

  148. flyktingar skriver:

    The europeans took our properties, experimented on us, enslaved us, uprooted us, exterminated us, raped us, took our skinns, our womens´hair, our tooth gold, and filmed us while doing it, obviously proud of their deeds. Now some of these same europeans try to conceal themselves behind unsubstantiated rumors saying that we are like them. Don´t bulshit us. We are the jews that survived the holocaust.

  149. agitpr0p skriver:

    På tal om organhandel …

    http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/albanska-bybor-stoppade-organutredning-1.929056

    Det är lätt att kritisera saker som händer i mellanöstern eller i kina. Men när det händer framför näsan, ja då håller alla tyst.

    .:agitpr0p:.

  150. un2here skriver:

    imriz says: … remember the partioning plan and what side rejected it (hint – it was not the Jews).

    Yes, I remember very well the partition plan who gave the Jews 30% more than what they were entitled to. No wonder the Jews did not reject it, who in their right mind would have had.

    As an aside, you have now three times claimed the title of land on behalf of your ancestors. Would you mind to mention the names and whereabouts of these alleged ancestors?

    One of them?

  151. Visionären skriver:

    Halland, kolla i annan tråd. I denna försvinner man i mängden.

    V

  152. loethman skriver:

    Carl Bildt… Jag är övertygad om att Israel känner vår yttrandefrihet väl. Det är likaväl en skam att vår ambassadör i Israel inte känner till det!
    Det jag och alla andra svenskar vill veta är dock inte frågan om yttrandefriheten är satt ur spel. Det må vara det intressanta för journalisterna, men inte för gemene man i svenska folket! Vi vill veta varför Israel inte bemöter aftonbladets påståenden.
    Israelerna måhända inte vara övertygade om att svenska folket inte är anti-semitiskt, men det är vi själva. Oavsett, det är inte ursäktligt att gömma sig om påståenden om anti-semitism för att slippa svara på besvärliga frågor. Vi bemöter Israels påståenden genom att öppenhjärtligt beskriva oss som Israels vänner liksom palestiniernas vänner. Vi förväntar oss därmed att även Israel bemöter på ett sakligt sätt de påståenden aftonbladet tar upp!
    Kommer regeringen att kräva detta av Israel?

  153. agitpr0p skriver:

    @lötman, det är inte upp till regeringen att kräva sådana saker av Israel. Däremot kan regeringen lobba mot FN att starta en oberoende utredning av anklagelserna om organhandel. Det skulle med all säkerhet gynna Israel bättre än det uttjatade nazi-kortet. Om utredningen friar Israel så blir det en PR-seger för dem och ännu ett bakslag för frilansaren hos Aftonbladet.

    .:agitpr0p:.

  154. melangedunord skriver:

    Bra, Carl Bildt!

    Til alle andre svensker: Vi i Norge kan bare misunne dere for å ha en prinsipielt solid utenriksledelse. I ”karikaturstriden” viste vår egen utenriksminister så godt som en motsatt holdning – i ”god sosialdemokratisk ånd”, selvsagt. Utrolig, men sant.

  155. [...] mot en av dem skulle kunna uppfattas som att jag tycker att alla andra är bra”, Carl Bildt kommenterar stormen kring Donald Boströms artikel i Aftonbladet. En storm som inom bara ett par dyng nått [...]

  156. flyktingar skriver:

    Löthman:

    Organstöldsskrönan är en av ett otal konspirationsteorier som Israels fiender sprider. Jag skulle kunna ge dig ett antal sajter som specialiserar sig på just sådant.

    Israel bemöter av princip inte förtalskampanjer.
    Om Israel skull utreda så skulle man misskrediteras enligt välkända konspirationsteoretiska metoder. Man kan inte bemöta lögnare med fakta emmedan dessa i bästa fall likställs, typ ”ord står mot ord”.

    För en lögnare är en lögn och ett faktum likvärt. I AB:s fall åtminstånne som berättelser betraktat och därför tycker man sig inte behöva källkritisk granskning.

    När AB trycker en berättelse som pekar ut en part utan att noggrant undersöka faktabakgrund, så är detta i sig sensationellt. AB ansluter sig till de som anser att berättelser är lika säljbara oavsett om de är sanna eller lögner. Gör man det, så har man som nyhetsforum skjutit sig i foten, eftersom det finns fler lögner än sanningar. Därmed söger AB att det mesta som står i AB är lögn.

    Det som gör detta fall unikt är att en ”rumsen” kvällstidning och Sveriges mest besökta nättidning kommer ut ur garderoben på detta sätt genom att publicerar en sådan skröna på sin kultursida.

    Att AB medvetet lånar sig till ryktsspridning i en fråga där dess redaktion tagit ideologisk ställning gör att det sällar sig till förtalssajterna jag tidigare antydde, därav antisemitbladet.

    I detta specifika fall hade man emellertid förväntat sig extra noggranhet. Att ersätta påståenden med insinuationer gör endast att artikeln istället för direkt lögn faller under rubriken förtal.

    Någonstans måste AB informeras om sitt nationella ansvar, som nyhetskanal gentemot sina läsare det svenska folket och konsekvenserna för samhället när stora medieaktörer tar sig friheten att då och då slira i bruna pölar.

  157. Kachina skriver:

    Tack flyktingar, nu har debatten och kritiken hamnat på den nivå den skall vara. Jag instämmer i kritiken mot AB, även om jag generellt ser den som en seriös tidning.

    Detta var ett tydligt hjärnsläpp i kampen om läsare. Jag får hoppas de drar lärdom.

  158. Kachina skriver:

    @ flyktingar, israeler och judar.

    Jag vägrar tro att någon antisemitism slagit rot i vårt kollektiva medvetande. Inte i vår generation. Vi är alltför medvetna om vår, Europas kollektiva skuld, vår undfallenhet, vår verbala och sociala skuld till att förintelsen kunde ske.

    Det ni ser i nutidens snabba informationsflöde är ”myggsvärmar”, frustrerade ungdomar som måste revoltera mot någonting men glömmer ”ideologin” så fort de hittar något mer intressant. Det brukar i regel vara någon av det motsatta könet och ett barn.

    Jag kan vara ganska skarp i min kritik när det gäller enskilda handlingar utförda av israeler eller palestinier.

    Trots detta är jag beredd att med mitt liv försvara Israels rätt att existera.

  159. Kachina skriver:

    För er information, flyktingar, chris, kris,….mfl.

    Min äldsta dotter har varit gift med en palestinier. Därför har hatprocessen passerat och neutraliserats vid vårt köksbord.

    Mina barn tillåts inte ärva en miljö där det ingår hat mot folkgrupp, ras, nationalitet eller total personlig underkastelse genom religion eller ideologi.

  160. yal67 skriver:

    >>>>Yes, I remember very well the partition plan who gave the Jews 30% more than what they were entitled to. No wonder the Jews did not reject it, who in their right mind would have had.

    Again a person that try to reinvent history instead of dealing with the real issues that exit today.

    The issue is that there are now 10 million people who live between the sea and the Jirdan river . another few million on the other side of the Jordan river (both are part of historic area promised to the Jews by the league of nation in 1922)

    How do we partition this areas between Jews and Arabs ?

    That is the question we must answer today.

    If the Jews are not willing to allow a Palestinian state – we have a problem. (although there is already Jordan a majority Palestinian state)

    If the Palestinians are not willing to allow a Jewish state – we also have a problem. (although there is already an Israeli state which is 75% Jewish)

    So why not start with what we have now instead of argue about 1922 or 1947 ?

  161. Kachina skriver:

    Make ONE state, The State of Abrahams Ancestors, muslims and jews in the same democracy.

  162. yal67 skriver:

    >>> Why did they keep the bodies of up to five days before we can bury them? What happened to the bodies in the meantime?

    instead of asking questions like ”when have you stopped beating you wife” ? lets’ ask a different set of questions:

    1. Where are rge refrigerator trucks which were supposed to hold the 500 bodies from the so-called Jenin massacre ?

    2. How come other than about 50 people – most of them fighters – no one was missing in Jenin after the so called ”massacre”

    3. Is there a single autopsy of a Palestinian body in which organs were missing ?

    4. Does Israel police do autopsy as a matter of routine as part of unnatural death – even when the dead is religious and religious jews object to it on religious grounds ? ( the answer is yes)

    5. Does israeli police hold on to bodies of Palestinian terrorists to let spirits cool down before the funeral – funerals which sometimes turn into riots (answer is : yes sometimes)

    6. If an event took place in 1992 ( and more than thousands of Palestinians killed since that time) why wait until 2009 for an accusation ? Was there any such proven accusation since that time ?

    7. Medically can organs be harvested from a Person that has died in the field and there were no immediate cooling facilities for his organs ?

    the bottom line is that this whole accusation is total nonsense much like this ”epidemic”ones from the same area: http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp476.htm

    We have stories after stories coming from north west bank:

    Jenin massacre

    Fainting school girls

    Sterilizing bubble gum

    Harvested corps

    not a shred of evidence despite many journalists trying to prove it. except one:

    http://factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000012.html

    pay close attention to the walking corps at min 1:09

  163. jubrze skriver:

    Går Linderborgs yttrandefrihet före Carl Bildts?

    Yttrandefriheten är vår allas rättighet. Även din
    Carl Bildt! Tycker du att Aftonbladets artikel är
    bra? Tycker du om collage av gamla och nya konspirationsteorier på tema ”judarnas ondska”? Aftonbladet får publicera
    sina sjuka artiklar så länge de inte strider mot Sveriges lagar, men alla måste ha rätt att ha
    en åsikt om deras skriverier.
    Delar helt Sveriges ambassadors åsikt att artikeln är ”chockerande och motbjudande”. Är det inte så Carl Bildt?

  164. yal67 skriver:

    >>>> ”I have had enemies and turned them into friends by showing them a better life and better opportunities by trading instead of fighting.”

    I think you fail to understand the Hamas ideology : The whole middle east is Muslim wakf. No land can be given to Jews to rule it. Jews can only be 2nd class citizens under Muslim rule (it is called Dhimmi – a concept that Swede should get familiar with):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

  165. Kachina skriver:

    I believe that you do not understand the science of subconscious. How to “plant” ideas that works in the subconscious mind, day and night, and slowly opens a new perspective.
    It requires a lot of social competence, but don´t worry. We have ABF and Medborgarskolan to send and teach you, both muslims and jews.

  166. shlomi339 skriver:

    Mr. Crl Bildt

    you and the sweeden goverment are Hippocrates!!!

    When it’s about the Muslems you found the way to shut doun a website over cartoon about Muhamad (see the link –

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4700414.stm

    but when it’s about telling liey about Israel the ”freedom of speech” is above all…

    hippocrates!!!

  167. yal67 skriver:

    Since this is Carl Bildt blog I would like to focus the issue back to ”freedom of speech” .

    Why do we have this universal right for freedom of speech ? Exactly for people like Bildt to exercise it to speak against evil.

    The antisemitic accusation in AB was evil. This is where freedom of speech is warranted : for People people like Bildt not to use his right and speak against that blood libel shows of a very malfunction moral compass. Since such a person hold a position of power in a government and failed to act in clear voice against evil – he should resign.

  168. chris200 skriver:

    @yal67

    > both [Palestine & Jordan] are part of historic area promised to the Jews by the league of nation in 1922

    The League of Nations in 1922 decided, concerning a Jewish homeland, nothing more than was stated in the Brittish Balfour declaration of 1917 and San Remo conference of 1920. That is, the ”establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”. Nothing was decided about borders and location within Palestine. Notice also the protection of the rights of existing non-Jewish communities, as a backdrop to the land grabbing and ethnic cleansing that followed in 1947-1949.

    When the Brittish Mandate of Palestine came into effect in 1923, the area was divided into Transjordan which immediately was given autonomous self-rule by the Hashemites who fought for the Allied during the war (and 1946 became the independant country Jordan), and Cisjordan which thereafter was referred to as Palestine. Palestine was not given self-rule because within its borders the Brittish were planning to create a homeland for the Jewish people. After 30 turbulent years, the Brittish decided in 1947 to withdraw and let the UN determine Palestine’s future.

  169. yal67 skriver:

    Chris,

    As I pointed out arguing about history does not promote peace. However I will just point out that as you claim the area that was promised as national home to the jews was indeed partitioned in 1922. But you are not correct about :

    ”the area was divided into Transjordan which immediately was given autonomous self-rule by the Hashemites who fought for the Allied during the war”

    It was not self rule – it was outside rule. The Palestinians in the area known as Jordan were nopt given self rule but the Hashemites (who came from Saudi Arabia) were made king of Jordan.

    so much for the ”indigenous” argument raised earlier…

  170. yal67 skriver:

    This blog is now part of the story:

    Israel to Sweden: We want a clear denunciation not meditations on a blog

    http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1109008.html

    As I pointed out above Mr Bildt could surly exercise his own freedom of speech. Tell us what you think Mr Bildt. Don’t hide behind so–called ”neutrality”….

  171. chris200 skriver:

    @yal67

    So the Hashemites ethnically cleansed Jordan of its Palestinian population and replaced them with a newly immigrated Saudi population? We know they did not, and we know Israel did.

    The replacement of one ruler (Ottoman Empire) for another (Brittish, Hashemites) did not concern Palestinians as much as the prospect of ethnic cleansing. And Zionist ideology was well-known to advocate ethnic cleansing of the homeland.

  172. yal67 skriver:

    Chris,

    No. They simply took control over the country.

    As far as your use of the term ”Zionist ideology – you have really exposed yourself now. You are one of those antisemitic person who claim ”Who me I am not antisemite I am only ”anti-Zionist” ”.

    So let us be VERY clear what Zionism is:

    Zionism calls for establishing of Jewish sovereign homeland (as promised in the Balfour declaration and the League of nation 1922 decision) in the area that is the ancestral land of the Jewish people.

    all the ethnic cleansing part – that is the invention of the antisemitism who call themselves ”anti-Zionists”.

    Let me ask you a simple question:

    Do you support the right of the Palestinian people for self determination and independence ?

    (my answer is yes)

    Do you support an equal right for the Jewish people ?

    If you answer yes you are a Zionist. Are you a Zionist Chris ?

  173. chris200 skriver:

    @yal67

    Ideology of some leading Zionists:

    ”We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border… both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly.” (Theodor Herzl, 1896)

    ”there are Jews, whom we are pledged to introduce into Palestine, and who take it for granted that the local population will be cleared out to suit their convenience” (Winston Churchill, 1919)

    ”The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war.” (David Ben-Gurion, 1937)

    ”…the Arabs must make room for the Jews in Eretz Israel. If it was possible to transfer the Baltic peoples, it is also possible to move the Palestinian Arabs” (Jabotinsky, 1939)

    ”Transfer does not serve only one aim – to reduce the Arab population – it also serves a second purpose by no means less important, which is: to evict land now cultivated by Arabs and to free it for Jewish settlement. … The only solution is to transfer the Arabs from here to neighbouring countries. Not a single village or a single tribe must be let off.” (Yossef Weitz, 1940)

    ”The concept of transferring European Jews to Palestine and transferring the Palestinian people out is central to Zionism.” (David Ben-Gurion, 1944)

    ”they [Palestinians] can either be mass arrested or expelled; it is better to expel them.” (David Ben-Gurion, 1947)

    ”We were told [by David Ben-Gurion] that the army had the ability of destroying a whole village and taking out all its inhabitants; indeed, let’s do it!” (Agudat Israel representative, 1947)

  174. Kachina skriver:

    From Sweden to Israel.
    I don´t take part in all of Carl Bildt’s political opinions, which I often reveals in this column.
    But, I fully defend his office and the duty we called on him to carry out. In his office it is not included to have opinions about media publications. To do this, we have prosecutors and courts to which one can report crimes against our laws. Anti-Semitism is a crime according to our law. Your Ambassador is free to go to nearest police station and file his complaints.
    I require an apology from the Israeli government to the Swedish people for the way they have acted and spoken against the Swedish people. Remember that Carl Bildt is our employee.
    Here, we speak open. We publish and discuss on basis of our values. You in Israeli shall not tell us what we are allowed to say, think and do. That issue is regulated in our own laws.
    Tell your government that I require a frank apology.

  175. Kachina skriver:

    Sorry, I can see that it was many years since I red, wrote and thought in English. It takes some time to get fluent.

  176. bestofmankind skriver:

    Kachina,

    With do all respect to you, requiring the Israelian government of an apology is too demanding since their reactions was partly an invitation caused by our own Ambassador to Israel through her controversial statement (now deleted) in the Foreign Ministry of Affairs website.

    Sad to say that our ambassador did made a terrible mistake.

    So tell me, who owes an apology to whom?

  177. Kachina skriver:

    I can see your point, but the israeli governments reaktion was both childish and stupid, anyway.

    Yes, our ambassador made a terrible mistake. I apologize for that.

  178. yal67 skriver:

    Chris,

    Surly you know that some Ben Gurion quotes are fabrications by antisemitism.

    Surly you know that leaders of nations say many things and your ability to pick and choose those quotes that fit your agenda is – how can we describe it again: let’s say it is reveling what you are.

    You have no intent on contributing to peace – you think that by providing some quotes from 50-100 years ago (Herzel whom you quoted died in 1904) you know all there is to know about the I/P conflict.

    Why don’t search for some Amin Husseini quotes ? Why don’t you look at intentions of present day Palestinian leaders Vs the willingness of most Israelis to give up land for peace.

    The core issue in the middle east is and was the unwillingness of the Muslims to concede even a small part of the middle east territory for Jewish sovereignty. If this problem can be solved borders can be found that would allow everyone to live in peace.

  179. bestofmankind skriver:

    You´re right of course that the Israelian government now is over reacting, and even taking advantage of the situation.

    I just want to be fair and judge the ”misunderstanding” from both sides.

  180. yal67 skriver:

    Chris you never answered the question:

    Are you a Zionist ? (i.e. do you support the right of the Jews to a homeland in the middle east) or in case you think all other nation deserve such right but the Jews do not – this makes you a bigot.

    so Chris Are you a Zionist ?

  181. chris200 skriver:

    @yal67

    > Why don’t you look at intentions of present day Palestinian leaders Vs the willingness of most Israelis to give up land for peace.

    Sure, a good start is former USA president Jimmy Carter’s book ”Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid”.

    > The core issue in the middle east is and was the unwillingness of the Muslims to concede even a small part of the middle east territory for Jewish sovereignty.

    It just so happens that the territory that Zionists wanted and now want to keep as much of as possible is the Holy Land or Kingdom of Jerusalem (for Jews, Muslims, and Christians) over which the medieval Crusades were fought, and in the past century a modern Crusade.

    Religious affections apart, the Palestinian people have since 1988 conceded 80% of their original land to Israel, through their acceptance of a two-state solution based on UN resolution 242. Thus they are giving up 80% of their land for peace.

    > Are you a Zionist ? (i.e. do you support the right of the Jews to a homeland in the middle east) or in case you think all other nation deserve such right but the Jews do not – this makes you a bigot.

    Some people want Sweden to be ”Swedish”, i.e. ethnically clean of some sort. However, rasism and ethnocracy are out of fashion with most people as well as democratic constitutions. Sweden is a multi-ethnic homeland for Christians, Jews, Muslims, and others.

    Many of the nations that are, came into being in violent and unethical ways. But the old ways are not acceptable in modern times, no matter how much one desires to wrestle a homeland from another people.

    The Holy Land is now, by a series of illegalities, inhabited by millions of Jews and that should not change; two wrongs don’t make a right. But residency is not the same as ethnocracy. I thus support a democratic but not ethnocratic homeland for Jews and Palestinians.

  182. yal67 skriver:

    Chris,

    you are mincing words. Let’s make it clear:

    Hamas (which won majority in the Palestinian elections in 2006) ideology is simple: Palestine is part of the Muslim nation and not an inch of it can be ruled by others – only by Muslims.

    Jews, on the other hand want and deserve the right for self determination.

    So do you support the right of the Jews or the Hamas ideology ?

    On the practical side the land must be split between Jewish state and a Palestinian state – but you seems to be against such solution (which puts you in the Hamas camp)

  183. imriz skriver:

    un2here, following your request to name my anchestors, and their whereabouts, here are some choosen examples:
    1. Abraham, deceased.
    2. King Saul, deceased.
    3. King David, deceased.
    4. Bar Kokhba, deceased.

    I wonder, How far back does your written history goes?

    Now, Ben Gurion also said that ”Anyone who believes that you can not rewrite history, Probably never tried to write the book of his memories.” – This is exactly what you and others of your kind are trying to do – rewrite history, and remove trace of the Jews history in this land, despite the fact it is documented in the Christian Biblical canon, Hebrew Bible and the Koraan (and in other writings from that time).
    Another nice Ben Gurion quotes: ”This country belongs to two people, the Arabs sitting in it, and Jews around the world”

    Sholamit Aloni: ”Jews in Israel are like a man in his home, can walk around in house shoes, While in anywhere else he goes to, he always feel like he needs to wear a tie, to hide some of his intimacy.”

    Yitzchak Rabin: ”We are home for all the Jews worldwide, we are the shelter, we are also the responsibility.”

    Binyamin Netanyaho: ”When the Arabs will lay down their arms, there will be peace – When Israel will lay down its arm, Israel will be no more”

    And I will finish with a quote that says it all:
    Menachem Begin: ”You know what I did and what did we do to prevent war and bereavement, but our fate is that in this country we must fight for our selves with total devotion. The alternative is Auschwitz, And our resolution is clear – THERE WILL NOT BE ANOTHER AUSCHWITZ.”

  184. yal67 skriver:

    Imriz,

    When I visited the US they told me of ”Historic route 66″ I asked why is it historic – they told me that it was used in the 60s but no longer.

    I used to tell them I live near a place – not unique at all in Israel (Tel Kasile if you want to know) where you just scratch the surface with you shoe tip and find some Roman ear poetry and there are still 31 more layers of cities that were build and demolished to ruins underneath the surface – many of them of the early Israelite, the Philistines (not to be confused with present day Palestinians) and more.

    How far back do the Swedes lay claim to Sweden ?

  185. imriz skriver:

    Chris200,
    I do not trust you or anyone else to keep me, or the rest of the jewish people safe – My grandparents (from both sides) trusted, and lost large portions of their family in the Holocaust (While your country supplied arms and other supplies to the German war machiine). History proven, in several occassions, that Europe is not jewish-friendly (just look on your self in the mirror). Blood libels, like the one in that newspaper, were common throughout the last few centuries, and led to numerous pogroms in the Jewish people around Europe – The reason that the Israeli government wanted your government to distance them selves from such lies, is because then, and now, these kind of lies used to justify attacks on Jews.
    Do you understand that, or are you one of those who actually believe that Jews are using the blood of christians infants to make Pessach bread?

  186. yal67 skriver:

    Hebrew my language was spoken and written in this very area over 3000 years ago:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gezer_calendar

    but today we have other issues to deal with:

    http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/0/3160DBA5E39046B5C225761A003978D9?OpenDocument

  187. Kachina skriver:

    ”How far back do the Swedes lay claim to Sweden ?”

    Well, the samé population can claim the land 12 000 years back.

  188. yal67 skriver:

    Well, the samé population can claim the land 12 000 years back.

    Great, The Jews only go back about 4000 back to trace their history to Israel.

  189. imriz skriver:

    Yal67,
    At 500 BC they were still carving paintings on caves walls.
    I think that most of their early writtings were only done somewhere between 1190 to 1320 C.E.

  190. imriz skriver:

    Kachina,
    Funny, because only somewhere around 7000~ B.C.E. Sweden became free of ice, and even then, most of the land was underwater.
    Your claims for 12,000 years of inhabitation puts the clock on 9990 B.C.E.
    The first written evidence for a solid ethnic group (nation) I know of is dated to somewhere around 100 C.E., by Tacitus.

  191. Kachina skriver:

    There was a mongolian ”shiffer-culture” in the Polar area (Skandinavis, Canada, Russia) tracked back to 10 000 BC.

    I have records back to -992 in one part of my family. They came in from the south. The other part has records back to 1300 and origins probably from people called kvaener and was a mix with the samé population.

  192. Kachina skriver:

    ”Funny, because only somewhere around 7000~ B.C.E. Sweden became free of ice, and even then, most of the land was underwater.”

    Wrong, 10000 BCE. People have lived inside the polar circle even before the earth was drenched in water. Not all from the previous civilisation died.

  193. imriz skriver:

    Only at 7000 BCE Svealand and the modern coastal regions of North-eastern Sweden were free of ice.

    At that time and before, the population was small, and were basically caves men.
    As I said, there is no written evidence for a shred of a nation before 100 CE

  194. imriz skriver:

    By the way, just for comparsion, there are written findings of Jewish history which dates back to 1750 and 1550 B.C.E.
    It is logical to assume that there were previous writtings that didn’t survive.

  195. Kachina skriver:

    We apparently have different sources.
    In Swedish schoolbooks It says that the northern part of Sweden was empty until about 1600.
    Now, there is evidence that both samés and kvaener had lived here for a very long time, but had no written history.

  196. yal67 skriver:

    Imriz,

    It is much more interesting to Calculate when will Muslims be 25% of Sweden population than when was 50% of Sweden free of ice.

    I say in 20-25 years.

  197. imriz skriver:

    yal67, Well, the Muslims are now roughly 4-5% of Sweden population, and it is rapidly increasing.
    Muslim population of Europe will nearly double by 2015-2020, while the non-Muslim will shrink by 3.5%, due to the higher Muslim birth rate.
    I think that when they reach 20-23% it will be time to make a partitioning plan for Sweden :)

  198. yal67 skriver:

    Imriz,

    Sweden, defending their position in refusing to snub these false accusations, will soon find themselves on the slippery slope that Britain is on. Once you compromise integrity to appease Militant Islam, it’s all over.

  199. Kachina skriver:

    In 20-25 years you will not be able to count muslims or jews in Sweden. You can only count Swedes, because Islam and the Jewish religion will, like Christianity, be dead religions.
    They will be replaced with the Philosophy of Life and the discussions will circle around different levels of consciousness in different forms and different dimensions. This will come “over a night” when science finds out that energy, light and consciousness are three aspects of same origin.
    As you already know, energy cannot be destroyed, only transformed into another form.
    The rest of the conclusions are up to you to draw.

  200. yal67 skriver:

    >>>In 20-25 years you will not be able to count muslims or jews in Sweden.

    About Jews: You are correct. They will run away and immigrate to Israel. About Swedes : They too will migrate to Australia, US or Canada.

  201. Kachina skriver:

    yal67

    Amygdala conclusion.

  202. imriz skriver:

    Kachina,
    You’ve seen too many episodes of Star Trek.
    As a fan, I also hope this will indeed be the faith of the human kind, but as a realistic person, I cannot see it happening in the foreseen future.

    By the way, on the subject, a must seen movie on how the Palestinian propoganda is using westren media to promote lies that demote Israel (If you are truely netrual, and do want to hear the other side too, please spend a few minutes checking this out):

    http://www.seconddraft.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=199

    I urge you to spend the time needed and get another prespective.

  203. un2here skriver:

    Imritz, you failed to demonstrate any direct link between you and King David.

    Is this because there isn’t any?

  204. yal67 skriver:

    My family can trace a link to The Haharal from Prague who was a decedent via Rabi Sharira Hagaon to King David.

    so what ?

    My claim to live in Israel is not based on the bible. My grandfather received an immigrant visa to come here in 1938 from the authorities. I was born here. That is all I need to know about my right to live in the Jewish homeland.

  205. un2here skriver:

    – My grandfather received an immigrant visa to come here in 1938 from the authorities. I was born here.

    And the Palestinians your grandfather so delightfully expelled was not?

  206. yal67 skriver:

    My grandfather did not expel anyone. He moved to Israel in an age where he could no longer learn the language well so he worked as day laborer in odd jobs mostly at the dumpster of an hospital that was build instead of a British army base (after they left) . His home was in an area that used to be swamps that were dried up by the 1st zionists immigrant which arrived 40 years before he did. In short he survived physically but never was able to regain the kind of life he had in Germany (he was a school teacher there) prior to the holocaust.

    So my grandfather and his son (my father) are a clear example of how refugees sometime suffer greatly yet in 1-2 generations they can rebuild their live if they choose not to be drowning in blame game.

  207. un2here skriver:

    - My grandfather did not expel anyone

    Ahh, I see … So it will then be quite OK with you to let them come back, for starters those 3/4 of a million refugees trapped in Gaza?

  208. yal67 skriver:

    unhere,

    No. Of course not. We can not change the nature of Israel to become a Muslim majority country. The whole point in having a Palestinian state (which I support) is for Palestinians from all over the world (including Gaza and from within Israel) to be able to move to their own country much like my grandfather moved to Israel.

    It does not make any sense that Palestine will be a Palestinian homeland but Israel would become a Majority Palestinian state within few years.

  209. imriz skriver:

    un2here,
    Can you prove a direct blood line to your anchestors in Sweden even 2000 years ago?
    Can any palestinian prove his anchestors lived in Palestine 1500 years ago (the short answer, by the way, is no – most of what you call palestinians today are a mix of feudal peasants brought to this land by the various conquerors, and a lot of them never had any legal ownership on any land at all)?
    I belong to the Jewish people, which has a proven history as a people, ethnic group and nation in the land now known as Israel, long before any other _existing_ ethnical group.
    What exactly are you questioning – _My_ Jewish belonging, or maybe the archeological and written proofs that the Jewish people did live in that land during these times? While I do understand and agree with yal67, I do think it is important to remember we have a long past here, just like, and even more, than the palestinians, and that we were exiled from this land by force. So, just like I’ve said in my first post, if you want to judge by historical claims – go ahead, my people history in this place is well documented – much better than the ancient Sweden history is documented.
    If you want to discuss practical points, which yal67 is putting on the table, then please address them, don’t dance around them with cheap rhetorics and propoganda.

  210. imriz skriver:

    Heh,
    it is funny, but I’ve posted a reply to Kachina earlier, which is now marked as ”waiting for review”.
    So much for the automatic and absolute freedom of speech and press :)

    By the way, As yal67 said in one of it’s previous points (and this is directly related to the original subject), When the Muhaamad caricature was published in a Swedish internet site, the Swedish goverment closed that web site down (and don’t sell me stories that the minister who did it was ”reported” to this committee or that – the fact is that the goverment forced the web site to remove it), and on the other hand, the Israeli arab parliament members are allowed (and activly use that right) to denounce Israel existence over the stage of the Israeli parlimant.
    So who is the hypocrite and who has a *real* freedom of speech?

  211. imriz skriver:

    Just to make it clear – No one in Israel is demanding that the newspaper will be closed, or that any one will _apologize_ – The request is that goverment will publish a condemnation against these blood libel. A publication of such condemnation is not by any way hurting or limiting the freedom of speech or press, but only shows that the Swedish goverment does not share this point of view (Or does it?). On the other hand, When the Muhaamad caricature was published, Europe was in flames and death threats were issued. Did you notice any Jewish rioting, or making death threats?

  212. pressord skriver:

    and I’m just happy ‘cos my daughter got her driving license and that CB is abroad all the time!

  213. un2here skriver:

    [imriz] – I belong to the Jewish people, which has a proven history as a people, ethnic group and nation …

    Ethnic group? Sure:

    Although the idea of African American Jews is sometimes met with skepticism, Rabbi Funnye says, ”I am a Jew, and that breaks through all color and ethnic barriers.”

    Funnye is one of 150,000 African-Americans who practice Judaism in the United States and studies are showing African-Americans adopting Judaism is becoming much more common in the United States.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capers_Funnye

    Try religion instead!

  214. imriz skriver:

    ”The Jews are an ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish

    The number of people converting to Judaism is relatively small, and involves a long, exhausting process. If anything, many Jews a long history as converted to other religions either by own will, or by force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition).

    In general, in Judasim religious conversion is discouraged: ”Rabbis are technically required to reject potential converts three times, and only if they remain adamant to then convert them.”
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism)

    Are you feeling more educated now? :)

    By the way, you are repeatedly ignoring relevent information, and repeatdly continue a wierd crusade against the Jews them self – Do you have anything specificly against Jews?

  215. imriz skriver:

    un2here,
    I’ve posted a long reply contradicting what you said, with references, but again, it is ”waiting for review”.
    For now, I will only state this – The number of people converting to Judaism is relatvely small, and involves a long, exhausting process – If you bothered to read your own reference you would have found out that
    ”As is traditional with Judaism, they do not seek converts, and members must study Judaism for a year before undergoing a traditional conversion requiring men to be ritually circumcised and women to undergo ritual immersion in a mikvah.”

    You can read the rest of my post when it finally approved.

  216. un2here skriver:

    There is nothing to contradict.

    I am only establishing the obvious that anybody at any point in time – including your ancestors – could if they so wished convert to Judaism. This is not only a possibility, it has even happened that whole nations have converted.

    Whether it is likely that Rabbi Funnye is also a direct descendant to King David, I don’t know. Objectively the distance to Ethiopia is no longer than to Russia though.

    PS: Your posts might get caught in the linkspam filter. Try to use fewer references.

  217. imriz skriver:

    And I was establishing the fact that Judasim is mainly built upon Jews from birth, and that Judasim *is* an ethnical group (The actual term is ethnoreligious – A group of people for which their ethnic identity is neither defined exclusively by ancestral heritage nor simply by religious affiliation, but often through a combination of both).
    ”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish”

  218. imriz skriver:

    I was also stating that while converting *TO* Judasim was not a common practice, converting *FROM* Judasim was, quite often by force (the spanish inquisition is one good example, but there are many more).

    By the way, is your wife also your sister? During history, SOME diversity is a must, but you can still find physical relations between Jews (Like common diseases). I can hardly see how your evidences of some converts voids the status of the Jews as a well established ethnical group.

  219. imriz skriver:

    On the same subject, the Vikings were known of taking female slaves and raping them. Also, due to the Sweden immigrants policy, Sweden is full of immigrants, and mixed marriges are quite logical outcome. So, following your logic, the Swedish today are not really Swedish, as they mixed with quite a lot of different ethnical groups all along history.
    Maybe Turkswedens would soon be a better name? :)

  220. rufuszerf skriver:

    I find it quite interesting that when a newspaper article involves slandering of the Jews and the spreading of lies about the israeli army and demonizing it, such an article is categorized under a banner of legitimate journalism and is protected by freedom of speech, but when a cartoon of Muhammad the Muslim prophets depicts the Muslim religion as one that seeks world domination via the use of any means necessary in order to achieve their goals, including holy wars against civilians, men, women and children then the swedish government bans such publications. the swedish goverment even closed down a news paper’s website after it published the danish cartoon ( if you don’t remember that one, check out this link. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4700414.stm )
    where is the right of free speech in that case?
    maybe the swedish goverment is worried about preserving the ”right” to slender groups that don’t have political influence in sweden.

    accusing the israeli army in organ traficing without any real evidence is not different from the plots against jews in the middle ages when jews where accused in the murder of christian children in order to make matzas for passover using children’s blood.
    the same kind of evidence is being used in both cases. obscure alleged witnesses claim to have seen this. oh yeah, right, if you say that you saw them ripping organs that it must be true, what better evidence is needed to prove a jew guilty in a crime that from someone to say he did it. you don’t need anything else, it is quite satisfying indeed!
    we are not living in the middle ages anymore and if someone accuses anyone in some crime he needs more that his word to prove it. freedom of speech doesn’t mean you can spread evil lies.
    i can’t just write in the papers that the carl bildt is raping young boys, he kidnapped and raped 30 boys already and he is a well-known pedophil and that my prove of that is that i’ve heard someone say so. that is libeling and cannot be done in a Democratic lawful country.

  221. rufuszerf skriver:

    oh and another thing. if this article was about israel and it’s wrongdoing how come the journalist also mentioned new jersey Jews and jewish connection all over the globe that form a conspiracy of a jewish organ trafficing network. this is clearly an antisemitic plot, you can’t deny it. it makes me feel sad that these things still happens after all we’ve been through, after all the progress in human rights. seems that the appearance of sweden as a banner of justice and protection of human rights is nothing but a sham, a fraud. the swedish government is nothing more then a collection of cowards.

  222. un2here skriver:

    imriz says: So, following your logic, the Swedish today are not really Swedish, as they mixed with quite a lot of different ethnical groups all along history.

    The difference being that the Swedes of today do not claim title of land in far away countries based on unprovable mythology.

    That the Ashkenazim as you mentioned, unlike other Jewish groups tend to suffer from genetic diseases only makes the case – if any? – that they might not be that closely related.

  223. yal67 skriver:

    un2here,

    It does not matter if it is ethnic, religious, language base or cultural: The Jewish people are a distinct group of people like the Chinese are, like the Hindu, like American Indians, like the basque and like other such ancient people

  224. yal67 skriver:

    Freedom of speech but now my comments are wating for the Minister approval…..

  225. un2here skriver:

    Well yal67.. Since you are not a religious man, I suppose the only thing that defines you as being Jewish is the common Hebrew language. A language of which your grandfather didn’t understand a word, possibly because it wasn’t spoken anywhere in Europe a hundred years ago.

    It may not matter to you, but will to others make your references to ”ancient” look a little out of place.

  226. yal67 skriver:

    Israeli ministry of health is looking for mobile liquid nitrogen containers for use by the IDF. It was found out that most Palestinians organs don’t make on time to the hospitals for use as organs for Jews. Since Sweden has experience in cooling the ministry is looking for help of Swedish firms to make money by providing such cooling containers.

  227. yal67 skriver:

    For those who wonder about neutrality – 70 years ago today:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact

  228. [...] Nu har vi hamnat här på grund av det här (jo, jag har hänvisat till vår egen hembakade knäckebrödskissinger [...]

  229. [...] sin blogg skriver Carl Bildt: ”På sina håll i Israel har man begärt att vi på ett eller annat sätt [...]

  230. [...] Comment! Israels regering trappar upp striden mot Sverige, skriver Svd. ”Regeringen måste fördömma artikeln”, skriver DN ‘Without condemnation, Swedish officials may be unwelcome’ skriver Jerusalem Post. Och samtidigt kör Ab nya artiklar i fallet. ”Så fungarar inte vårt land”, har Bildt svarat på sin blogg. [...]

  231. [...] Comment! Israels regering trappar upp striden mot Sverige, skriver Svd. ”Regeringen måste fördömma artikeln”, skriver DN ‘Without condemnation, Swedish officials may be unwelcome’ skriver Jerusalem Post. Och samtidigt kör Ab ut nya artiklar i fallet. ”Så fungarar inte vårt land”, har Bildt svarat på sin blogg. [...]

  232. vorojak81 skriver:

    Sverige måste stå på sig och det är bra att denna debatt är igång, det säger en hel del om Israels syn på statens roll i ett lands media.

  233. imriz skriver:

    un2here, again, you are ignoring facts – Jewish people are an ethnoreligious, and therefore are connected by various other things, *INCLUDING*, but not *ONLY* by religion. Your continues attempts to rewrite history while ignoring scientific/archeological facts (which some were mentioned and referenced here) just to belittle and abolish the Jewish people and/or Israel makes you a complete and uber bigot.
    You repeatedly jump from one reasoning to another, after the previous one you presented proved to be false.
    You make me sad.
    I am currently abroad, and it is time for me to start the journey back to Israel, my homeland.
    I just home that your biased support of the Muslim side won’t {literally} blow up in your face some day in the near future.
    Enjoy your life in Eurabia.

  234. imriz skriver:

    un2here, Just one last thing –
    The example I’ve presented is releveant, because if we continue your line of thinking, the fact there are around 500,000 muslims in Sweden which calls them selves Swedens, cancel what ever connection you have/had to the ancient Swedens and therefore revoke any historical claim you have on that land, and therefore makes it free for the muslims to call their own in just a few years.
    It is exactly the same logic you’ve presented.

  235. Kachina skriver:

    imriz

    I see, so your government is a result of 4000 years’ jewish inbreeding? Then I understand.
    If a wino vomits on the street in Tel. Aviv, do you then requires that your Minister for Health and Social Affairs will dry it up? No, hardly.
    Why do you require then that our Minister for Foreign Affair shall dry up whatever Aftonbladet vomits from itself?
    Is your thinking a result of 4000 year’s inbreeding that has influenced the sense?
    I´m sorry. Don´t take it literally. I´m just angry after having read the Israeli papers and I’m trying to throw your own attitude back at you.

  236. imriz skriver:

    Kachina,
    I do agree this as escalated far more than needed, but let’s remember two things:
    1. No one asked ANYONE in Sweden to _apologize_, just to condemn and distance the official goverment from such views. This is a legitimate request which doesn’t hurt nor the freedom of speech or press. Do we agree on that?

    2. In a quite similiar event, the goverment of Sweden went as far as _closing_ a web site. Do you wonder people claim for hypocrisy of Sweden?

    This did not come as a suprise to any Jew, in Israel and the world – Sweden is a major consumer of Pallywood.

    Please, do spend a few minutes and read/watch the materials in this website, just to get another prespective, and maybe understand why Israel is so fed up with these lies: http://www.seconddraft.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=199

  237. yal67 skriver:

    >>>Why do you require then that our Minister for Foreign Affair shall dry up whatever Aftonbladet vomits from itself?

    Because they did in the past for the Muhamad cartoons.

    Because they financed the book that made the ‘research” on the issue.

    Because they claim to tell Israel what to do in the name of ”morality”

    and more…

    So to avoid double standard they have to speak out:

    If Jewish are stealing organs – say so.

    If this accusation is ridiculous and antisemitic in nature – say so.

    Just choose sides – something that is against the grain for Swedes – but you have done it before. Neutrality in the face of evil is choosing a side as well.

  238. Kachina skriver:

    imriz

    Thank you for the link. It is now bookmarked. I will return to it.
    Yes, we are consumers of Pallywood. We are also experienced consumers of Hollywood, Kommiewood and Sossewood.
    We don´t “eat” all we see.
    Why and who is gaining is always present, before we “taste”.

    yal67

    ”Because they did in the past for the Muhamad cartoons.”

    No, they didn´t. It was the same government that handled the Tsunami in Thailand. A weak government that lost the last elections, much because the Tsunami and the Muhammed drawings.

  239. un2here skriver:

    Imriz, actually Muslims are free to call Sweden their native country already today. Jews too …

    I really do not understand your call for segregation, what is it that you are afraid of loosing? If it is worth keeping, it won’t disappear just like that. As an example, say Ofra Haza’s ”Yemenite Songs” where she picks out some of the treasures from her grandma’s songbook. It’s eternal.

    Anyways … Eventually we will breed a new race here consisting almost evenly of Viking barbarians, Communist and Capitalist barbarians as well as Muslim barbarians with a healthy doze of the barbaric Spanish Inquisition thrown in for good measure.

    I dare you, come play tennis with us then!

  240. Kachina skriver:

    ”Just choose sides – ”

    Impossible. You ask me to choose one of two idiots that has been killing each other for sixtytwo years.

  241. imriz skriver:

    un2here,
    Well, we would love to play tennis with you, but it seems you lack the ability to host such a game (and yes, I’ve seen your reply on that subject, a simple google search reveals your true face :) ), so even if such game would take place, I probably would be allowed to attend it.

    I dare *you* to walk 2 miles in Malmo with a shirt with a big Magen David on it, just to really see how tolerant Sweden is today.

  242. imriz skriver:

    Kachina,
    The fact Israel already gave lands back twice, for *real* peace when it was offered, doesn’t mean anything to you? The fact the Palestinians are still not willing to accept Israel, and their best offer is a ”long term cease fire”, doesn’t mean anything to you?

    You are not judging the situation fairly.
    Mind you, the accumalated hours of fighting in Europe is by far higher (should I again remind you that your region of the world started two world wars, and vast imperialism projects in that not so far past?).

    Please, judge us fairly – We are most certainly not saints, but in the bottom line, we are fighting for a land, the only land, our people ever called home, which is 20 times smaller than Sweden, a land from which we were exiled from by force, to countries in which we were tortured, abused and murdered, only to return and find the conquerors claiming it to be their own, as if they were there since the begining of time. During this time, Israel were attacked by its neighbors several times, and yet was brave enough to give these countries land back in exchange of peace.
    The Palestinians them selves as given up various chances to make peace, because they would not settle for anything less than the whole country. During their process to achieve that goal, they invented or reinvented various methods and tools, from suicide bombings of civilians targets (and then complain that Israel is tighting security in order to prevent it) to anti-semite blood libels.

    Please try to see OUR side of the story too, with an open mind.

  243. Kachina skriver:

    Very good and clear message, imriz.

    I have lived and worked in Israel. I am israelfriendly and I am prepared to defend Israel’s right to exist with my life, even though I question your behavior since -91. It is wrong path to peace.

    PS. I am a man, as old as the State of Israel and still fully capable to handle a weapon. I am also fully capable of defending our government. It is not our foreign minister’s task to mop up the vomit from Aftonbladet.

  244. yal67 skriver:

    Kachina,

    Have you wrote to AB ?

    Are you using your freedom of speech ?

    Were there Swedes demonstrating against the article ?

    I am sure this is all in line with Swedish constitution.

  245. Kachina skriver:

    No

    Yes

    No

    Yes

    I didn´t write to AB when they ”cut the legs of” Astrid Lindgren in the 80-ies. I just stopped buying and reading their newspaper. In the 90-ies AB came back with a new approach and was readable again.

    Stories like this alleged organtheft is ignored by me and most of educated people. We take them for what they are, moneycollectors.

    But,……I have given Helle Klein, the editor, some slaps on her fingers in this blogg.

  246. yal67 skriver:

    >>>I have given Helle Klein, the editor, some slaps on her fingers in this blogg.

    Surly it did not help since they are back at it today.

    >>>ignored by me and most of educated people. We take them for what they are, moneycollectors.

    I don’t buy that. sorry. Why ? because this publication is just one out of many around the world which is systematically not telling the whole truth about the M/E conflict. So maybe AB story is the straw that broke the camel back.

  247. yal67 skriver:

    It is time for honest educated people to stand up to Evil. AB false is good place to start and the4 Swedish government cam lead.

  248. bestofmankind skriver:

    ”AB false is good place to start and the4 Swedish government cam lead.”

    It´s your right to make a request.

  249. Kachina skriver:

    ”Surly it did not help since they are back at it today”

    They are back, with a report where the israeli foreigdep. explains the situation.

    ”….the world which is systematically not telling the whole truth …”

    You NEVER get the whole truth.

    ”It is time for honest educated people to stand up to Evil.”

    You ask me to fight evil with evil.

    Who is without quilt in this conflict?

  250. daniel71 skriver:

    … och yttrandefrihet innebär att det är fritt fram att sprida skrönor och lögner?

  251. [...] allt som skrivs i pressen? Självklart inte. Utrikesminister Carl Bildt sammafattar detta väl i en bloggpost: Skulle jag ägna mig åt att korrigera alla konstiga debattinlägg i olika media skulle jag nog [...]

  252. [...] har Carl Bildt på sin blogg kommenterat turbulensen runt Donald Boströms artikel om misstänkta israeliska organstölder på [...]

  253. flyktingar skriver:

    Det är bara att inse att Sverige har en stor grupp allienerade immigranter och att Israel erbjuder Sverige den idealiska yttre fienden.

    Man har kompromenterat relationen till Israel för att få lugn i Rosengård, jämför DC-matchen i Malmö nyligen.

    När Sverige lämnade Ahmadinejadtalet i Schweiz var det en onormal handling, tillsynes ett undantag men i själva verket var det påtvingat utifrån. Sverige skulle aldrig ensamma lämnat mötet. Det skulle den svenska oppinionen aldrig accepterat. Carls egen åsikt är att det är bättre att vara närvarande än att vara frånvarande (jfr Ahmadinejads installation nyligen). I Schweztillfället kom man undan kritiken för att ”de flesta andra också lämnade mötet”.

    Israel synar nu Sveriges ”israelvänliga” fasad.
    Hur ska Sverige ducka de annalkande konfronationerna med Israel och den egna hemmaoppinionen?

    Svaret är EU.

    Genom att göra gemensam sak med EU kan man undvika att ta ställning som enskilt land. Således, Sverige vänder sig till EU och oavsett vad EU rekommenderar, så kan Sverige två sina händer och säga att man följde EU:s rekommendation. Utnyttja att vi är ordförandeland. Lycka till!

  254. Knut Lindelöf skriver:

    Svaret är inte tydligt! Dels antyder det antisemitism och omdömeslöshet i Boströms artikel, vilket är svagt. Men framför allt är det svenska Israelambassadörens agerande som borde kommenterats, men om detta ekar fortfarande tystnaden.

  255. [...] från utrikesminister var ett blogginlägg om ”konstiga inlägg” och igår med ”känner stor [...]

  256. bulldozen skriver:

    A huge pile of views on this page. Trying to sort things out…

    Just read comments by paraspora and ruzirekta on this page. They sums things up in a compact form. A sherd of the complete picture.

  257. [...] Pressefreiheit vorgehen. Außenminister Bildt nutzt wie üblich sein Blog zur Stellungname (1 2) und fügt hinzu, dass eine Distanzierung von einem bestimmten Artikel eine Zustimmung zu all [...]

  258. [...] about the controversy on his blog, Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt said that issues relating to anti-Semitism were a subject of [...]

  259. imriz skriver:

    Kachina,
    You are clearly much more open minded, and balanced in your views, than others here (anyone said un2here?). I respect your criticism (while not always accepting it :)). I can also tell you (which is something you probably already know, considering the fact you spend time in Israel), that the people here are not the beasts some people try to portrait.
    You must surely know that Israel is as plural as most of the western countries, and that freedom of speech is kept here zealously – The proof is the organizations calling for the destruction of Israel, operating freely from within Israel, and even parlament memeber are allowed to denounce Israel over the parlament stage, and their immunity as parlament memeber is also zealously guarded, even when they break the Israeli law by traveling to countries that the law define them as in ”enemy countries”, and even when they reveal information and help an enemy during war (!!). The freedom of press and speech in Israel is parcticed and guarded (in comparsion, such rights doesn’t exists to the fully in *any* other country in the region or in any other Muslim country).

    This may come as a shock to some people reading this post, but the vast majority in Israel is willing to give land in exchange of peace (and again, the proof is the two peace treaties for which Israel gave land in exchange, and the withdrawl from Gaza, for which we only got more fire in exchange), but are expecting to see some steps of good will from the other side too (is that too much to ask, really?).

    So, when such a blood libel appears, which is just another in a recent blooming of such libels but alarming in the level it reaches, are you suprised the Jewish people expect the goverment of a friendly country to distance them selfs from such lies (or maybe, the goverment of Sweden do think these lies are based, and then it should also state that, and press charges in the international court)? Remember, no one asked for anyone to apologize – you clearly shouldn’t appologize for *allowing* such article to be publiced, just to simply distance them selves from such wild accuasions. This is not matter of hurting free speech, or the freedom of press – I am sure the Swedish goverment is responding to media publications on a daily basis – or a matter of choosing sides (It doesn’t say anything about the righteous of any of the sides).

  260. Kachina skriver:

    imriz

    Swedish people, the parliament and the government has already taken a clear distance from anti-Semitism. This is enshrined in a law which was voted through by 100% of the votes.

    The way in which Liebermann demanded a statement by Carl Bildt, recalls the teenage boy’s ”Do as I say, otherwise I hit you on the jaw.”

    It is a good way to get the swede silent. He says not a word if he is threatend.

    There are criminals in all countries. Already in the 60th century came the fear that illegal organ trade would become the next mafia merchandise. There are now criminal trade in illegal bodies in all countries, incl. Sweden.

    The number of missing children in the world has increased exponentially in the last twenty years. There is no one who believes that Sweden, Israel, U.S., England ,…. governments are involved in these disappearances.

    I am saddened when I read Lieberman’s claim about rising anti-Semitism among the Swedish people. What you see and hear are popping peanuts.

    Anti-Semitism has no foothold in the broad mass of the Swedish people.

  261. [...] gave a discreet and diplomatic response to Israeli calls for intervention against Aftonbladet in a statement on his blog, declaring that “this is not how our country works – and this is not how it should work [...]

  262. Kachina skriver:

    According the FBI’s National Crime Information Center (NCIC)

    * 85% to 90% of the 876,213 persons reported missing to America’s law enforcement agencies in 2000 were juveniles (persons under 18 years of age). That means that 2,100 times per day parents or primary care givers felt the disappearance was serious enough to call law enforcement.
    * 152,265 of the persons reported missing in 2000 were categorized as either endangered or involuntary.
    * The number of missing persons reported to law enforcement has increased from 154, 341 in 1982 to 876,213 in 2000. That is an increase of 468%.

    This is only USA. Do anyone seriously believe that US Army is involved. NO!

    No one within his senses do believe that the Israeli army is involved in organ-theft.

  263. [...] mer om frågan; Bildts blogg, Aftonbladet skriver mer, smart sagt av svenskan [...]

  264. yal67 skriver:

    Kachina säger:
    augusti 24, 2009 kl 4:43 e m

    imriz

    Swedish people, the parliament and the government has already taken a clear distance from anti-Semitism. This is enshrined in a law which was voted through by 100% of the votes.

    =====

    I think your view and our view is different on the question of what is antisemitism. Applying a different moral standard against what Israel did in Gaza to what NATO does in Afghanistan is bigotry.

  265. Kachina skriver:

    Criticism of what NATO does in Afghanistan is sometimes very hard, here in Sweden.

  266. imriz skriver:

    Kachina,
    Just to set the record straight, Liberman did not *threat* – he compared the silence to the silence during WWII – You may agree or disagree with that, but saying that he threatened is not accurate.
    You may say that his reactions were exaggerated, but the Swedish goverment response was both insensitive and arrogant, and in addition not accurate (as I have said before, condemning a wild accusation, which DO remind a middle ages blood libel, is not the same as *restricting* the freedom of speech nor press, not to mention Sweden did do that in the past.

    The Swedish goverment is of course entitled to refuse from what ever reason, but A. it shouldn’t hide between the false concept that this is by anyway hurting the freedom of speech or press
    B. shouldn’t be suprised this decision is upsetting the Israeli side.

  267. Kachina skriver:

    OK, you can be upset, but we will still defend Israels right to exist.

  268. Kachina skriver:

    ….and of course the Palestinians right to a state of their own.

  269. jontemannen skriver:

    Tryck- och yttrandefriheten skall försvaras, men skall man i skydd av denna kunna vräcka ur sig vilka påståenden som helst utan några underliggande fakta? Om palestinier tror att kroppar tömts på organ, så skulle detta kunna bevisas tämligen lätt genom obduktioner – detta har ej skett.

    Om dessa påståenden hade riktats gentemot en privatperson så hade de ej skyddats av tryck- eller yttrandefrihet, utan sannolikt funnits vara förtal.

    När det iställets riktas gentemot det judiska Israel så får man tydligen vräka ur sig vad som helst. Vilka ”avslöjanden” kan vi förvänta oss härnäst ifrån Aftonbladet? Kanske den israeliska arméen dödade Michael Jackson?

    Den svenska regeringen kan inte stoppa publiceringen av artiklar som denna, men jag hade – som moderat väljare sedan 20 år – förväntat mig att utrikesministern hade stött den svenska ambassadören eller som privatperson tydligt tagit avstånd ifrån artikeln.

    EN RÖST MINDRE TILL MODERATERNA I NÄSTA VAL/

  270. florimond77 skriver:

    Oavsett om här har skett en organstöld (vilket inte är helt otroligt) har hemska sanningar blottlagts. Stenkastande ungdomar mördas och skändas. Detta bör man prata med de israeliska representanterna med. I åratal har unga män (och även barn) fängslats och försts bort dagligen. Följ Maan nyhetsbyrå tex. Jag har ofta undrat vad man gör med alla dessa ungdomar. Israel fortsätter att dagligen stjäla land och trakassera palestinier. Oavsett regering. Inte undra på att palestinier slår tillbaks och motståndsrörelser bildas. Om dessa skickar rakter,bomber eller sten eller inte gör det. Israel ändrar inte sin aparteidpolitik. Avsikten är helt klar. Man hoppas få hela landet en dag och man hyser inga som helst samvetskval. Om detta vittnar bla annat den våldshumor man bedriver. Från t-shirts med måltavlor på gravida kvinnor till vridna skämt om organdonation.
    Men Israel kommer aldrig att få hela landet man vill åt. Det är för sent. Om man behandlat palestinierna mänskligt i begynnelsen 1948 och inte gett efter för sin girighet hade det idag varit lugnt i landet.
    Idag står snart Israel ensam i världen och ingen kommer att vilja köpa deras blodiga varor.

  271. flyktingar skriver:

    florimond77:

    Tack för ditt inlägg.
    Det är ingen tvekan om att du och Aftonbladets redaktion är helt eniga i beskrivningen av situationen.

    Det var just den vridna verklighetsbilden som resulterade i Donald Boströms famösa antisemitiska övertramp, den som justitiekanslern just nu studerar.

    Aftonbladet kommer att få shavottera för detta länge än, var så säker. Frågan är om de överhuvudtaget kan repa sig med sittande chefsredaktör.

    Vem vill citera en tidningen som lät klassisk antisemitism slippa igenom och framhärdar med att stå för det? Vem, utom ”palestinavännen” florimond77, menar jag förstås.

  272. un2here skriver:

    Vem vill citera en tidningen som …
    kastar en skugga över chefspatalogen på Abu Kabir, professor Yehuda Hiss?

    Ezra HaLevi har då inga problem:

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/90518

    ”He has also been investigated for selling organs and falsifying testimony.”

  273. flyktingar skriver:

    un2here:

    Ännu en som blandar och ger.

    Skriv en artikel och se till att få den publicerad i Aftonbladet med en jude i förgrunden, så kommer du dela årets tryckfrihetsmedalj med chefsredaktören?

  274. un2here skriver:

    Altså, flyktingar ..

    Jag ger dig din utgång serverat på ett silverfat. Hiss är ju redan förbrukat och historia. Stäng av det självspelande anti-semit pianot ett ögonblick, haja läget, och gör en något så nära trovärdig utredning.

    Sen kan vi gå hem …

  275. flyktingar skriver:

    un2here:

    Jag tycker du ska skicka länken till Aftonbladet. Deras redaktion blir säkert tacksam, publicerar och sätter sig in i orsakssambanden efteråt. I vanlig ordning.

  276. flyktingar skriver:

    Kan ni fatta att Aftonbladet vill testa yttrandefrihetens gränser med Donald Boströms antisemitiska artikel. Tro det eller ej men organstöldsskrönan ligger kvar på Aftonbladets sajt.

  277. mic74 skriver:

    imriz säger:
    augusti 21, 2009 kl 8:19 e m
    Well, I know that, and forgot part of what you said.

    But
    Let’s summerize what my view is.
    First of all, Carl Bildt have my support, good answer. Israel should take it up with Aftonbladet and no one else, you have the right to sui them and refuse thier reporters. But the Swedish goverment should not be involved. I had the same opinion about the muhammed caricatures. If anything, publish them even moore. I did read the article after the Isrealy accusations, the last few sentences shouldn´t have been published, but the rest was just reporting the tales of people who had relatives killed and a bit about the recent organscandal in New Yersey.

    The tale wasn´t very logical since they told him that first they shot him in 3 places where the inner organs are and probably destroyed them anyway, then stole them. I would have waived it off as fantasies and fairytales if the Israelis haven’t reacted as they did, truthfully I still do.

    in this case the Israely goverment have acted really stupid. They have no rights whatsoever to demand that our goverment should interfere with the newspapers.
    On the other hand, I personally agree with our ambassador, it is not my view or opinion that the article is true.

    All countries has extremists to both the left and right. In Isreal it is clear that their current goverment is very right wing, and I say extreme RW.

    Here in Sweden the extreme LW and RW usually are more like gangbangers, the opinion or even less ideology is not the point, they just want to fight someone and destroy for everone else. In Gaza, make that 10 times more, they are desparate and really can’t see any way out, or so I believe.

    > If you decide that by who lived their RECENTLY, without taking into consideration HOW they got the land… than in X years the Palestinians claims will be null and void – Do we agree on that?z<

    Personally, yes! But for how long? The Balkan war was mostly over a conflict that happened several hundred years ago.

    I have at least 1000 years of history in my part of Sweden according to some researchers, I probably have a lot of genes from other parts of earth, statistically a lot from Israel (geographically). I am not religeous or member of any church. Can I claim land in Isreal? Or do you all have DNA that proves it and anyoone that don't can't? Or is it just an idea, religion or political claim you have?

    One the other hand, you are there now, when I was a child I allways saw Isreal as the heroes, and apperently my father still does no matter what you do.

    The realyty is that Palestina was a part of th Brittish empire, they gave it to the jews, and if I remember it correctly the jews were slightly in majority at the time. They were hated and threatened from all sides and had to fight for it. Against al lot of odds they succeded. Well done. Later history (1990 and forwards is more problematic).

    Off course tou have to react on rockets etc. And you have had goverments that would have solved it eventually, but now you have warmongers and obviously more than one have an extreme case of hubris. Don't try to dictate how our country should work. We are peaceful for now, don't misstake that for meek. It is only a few hundreds years back to when we where childish warmongers. Even my blood went up a few degrees when I heard your ministers talk, and I didn't know what it was about and consider myself as utterly peaceful and understanding.

    Well, the thing to do is try to think yourself into the other parts situation. If I was a jew in Israel or a Palestinia and soforth. I does not tell you very much bit a little bit moore than not thinking at all.

  278. chris200 skriver:

    @mic74

    > The realyty is that Palestina was a part of th Brittish empire, they gave it to the jews, and if I remember it correctly the jews were slightly in majority at the time.

    The Brittish conquered Palestine from the Ottoman Empire 1917 and then promised to create there a homeland for Jews, leading to a League of Nations decision about that in 1922.

    In 1947 the UN decided to partition Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. 33% of the population were Jews and they were allocated 55% of the land – without the consent of the majority population; illegal according to international law. These Jews were newly immigrated. In 1922, 11% of the population was Jewish. In 1914, 6% was Jewish.

    250 000 Palestinians had been ethically cleansed by the time Israel was declared a state in 1948 and the Arab armies advanced into areas not allocated to Israel. By 1949, in total 750 000 Palestinians had been ethnically cleansed and Israel had taken 80% of the land. 750 000 was half of the Palestinian population; two thirds of the Palestinian population within the area of Israel.

    Source: The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, by Israeli Jew and Historian Ilan Pappe.

    http://www.bokus.com/b/9781851685554.html

  279. mic74 skriver:

    yal67 säger:
    augusti 22, 2009 kl 8:41 f m

    Good comment, I agree.

  280. mic74 skriver:

    jubrze säger:
    augusti 22, 2009 kl 8:56 f m

    Våra amassadörer är där för att företräda vårt lands offeciella hållning, det är deras jobb. Deras privata åsikter har inget med saken att göra, det har inget med yttrandrefrihet att göra. Kan de inte sköta jobbet på de premisserna så låt någon annan göra det. Hon sa att det var hela svenska folkets åsikt. Jag kanske delar den men det har hon inte rätt att påstå.

  281. mic74 skriver:

    I stand corrected, but on the other hand, in thoose times I think it was moore about that the Britts lost control all over the world and they thought(correctly) that the Jews would do it for them. The Empire has changed the world in a lot of places.

    And I think it is totally and utterly dumb to blame the Europeans as a group for the WWs. Israels is in Asia, does that mean taht all genocides i asia in history are Israels fault? Or do you claim that you lived in Europe that time, wich would imply that you are at least as guilty… Utterly stupid and childish, grow up.

  282. chris200 skriver:

    @mic74

    While the Brittish Empire crumbled, they had a lot of problems with Zionist terror groups (Irgun, Stern) that wanted the Brittish to get out of Palestine. For example, read about the King David Hotel bombing. When the Brittish lost India, they lost the need to control Palestine as a transit link to India. They gave up and handed the issue over to the UN and in the vote for partition 1947 the Brittish abstained from voting. Instead the driving force was the USA, it even pushed three nations to change their vote to be positive. And even then, they only managed to gain 59% votes positive to the partition, which was enough by the smallest margin.

    While I recommend Pappe’s book, a good primer (in line with more lengthy books which can give more evidence for claims) available free online is ”Nakba – The Ongoing Cleansing of Palestine”: http://60yearsofnakba.org/

  283. flyktingar skriver:

    Chris200:

    Vad sägs om lite dokumentärfilmer, som motvikt mot Pappes berättelsebaserade ideologiskt färgade subjektiva historieskrivning. Följ länken. Flertal filmer

    http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=52315

    … bara för att något lite komplicera Chris200:s enögda historiesbekrivningen.

  284. mic74 skriver:

    chris200 säger:
    augusti 22, 2009 kl 11:49 f m
    That was a lot of sentences from an extreme time from extremists taken out of there sentence. I will not have any kind responsability from that kind of people.

    I can be proud in the fact that so far as I have discovered, not anyone from my famely was nazists. A few even died against them. Mostly they held a low profile but tried to help as good as they could. And they did loose a lot of money and influence.
    So I am in my full right to despice any attempt to censure our freedom of speech. And C.B should stand his point. Sui Aftonbladet, not the goverment.
    I fully agree with Kachina on most points.

    But as an individual, Yal67 etc. is more considerate and logical than a lot of people in our internal political discussions. And so far it is reciproced, I have a lot of comments to still read but so far it’s been unusually civilized. ”Utterly stupid” and so on is far better then in most forums…

  285. mic74 skriver:

    imriz säger:
    augusti 22, 2009 kl 2:46 e m

    un2here, following your request to name my anchestors, and their whereabouts, here are some choosen examples:
    1. Abraham, deceased.
    2. King Saul, deceased.
    3. King David, deceased.
    4. Bar Kokhba, deceased.

    Excuse me for languistics wrongdoings, misspellings and soforth, I am a bit rusty.

    Well since I’m not religous I don’t know all of these people. 1. Abraham I do know.
    And the thing is that christianety’s oldest part is the same as the jewish. And so are Islam’s. The differenses are that christians have a messiahm Jesus, Islam have two, Jesus and Muhammed. And then there are a lot of interpertation differencies and so on.

    For me? It’s interesting historical books with very little scientific relevance. Use them as arguments for war? Like childs in a sandbox fighting over toys.

  286. mic74 skriver:

    mriz säger:
    augusti 22, 2009 kl 2:46 e m
    Otherwise, a good and clear comment. But still, why try to impose your political values on us? Clearly an anti Eu thing, but an unusually childish one. Please, vote fro another goverment next time. I stil consider Israel to be a western type democratic country and hope you won’t go all the way to dictarorship, god knows the whole west is close enough.

  287. mic74 skriver:

    imriz säger:
    augusti 22, 2009 kl 2:57 e m
    That’s totally and utterly ignorant. With that wiev I have at least as much claim as you do on Isreal. We do have some arceoligic findish that are 5000 years old or more. That doesn’t mean that I have any DNA relationsshio with the people whi used to live here. And go bac a little longer and there was an iceage.

    Old books and saying that you have the rights doeasn-t prove anything aside from ignorance and stupidety. So far back, the chanses are great that our ancestors was siblings, and that’s even in the darwinistic and heraldatoric sence.

    I think I misspelled moore then a few worlds there. And still, I do get Israels point in the conflicts, but when you say we are responsible as Europeans you have to understand that makes you responsible for Alexander the grat, Gingis Khaan and all other asian warlords, do you not?
    The WWs are recorded and recent, recorded mostly thankfully to the Europeans. I can’t claim any direct history in the most important discovories in our day, ut at least I know I have peronally influenced and had a few groundbraking ideas for our coming generations. As an Israel, you have an opportunity to to more than that.

  288. mic74 skriver:

    imriz säger:
    augusti 22, 2009 kl 2:57 e m

    Well, I have forgot the most importent point on the sake of issues.

    You do have a very important point there, but it is not about jews or any specific group. Politicians and wannabe mighthavers will allways try to find a specific group of people to blame, that is the lazy and easy way to win a selection. In Sweden it is prohibited to blame anyone on the behalf of race, origins or gender. So they go for the poor, sick and unlucky or blame it on the rich and prosperos depending on political agenda, in the end, politicians allways look out for themselfs.

    In my research and a few from US I had come to the conclusion that it is very hard to distinguish why one should deserve more. In a NY Jewish community research they said that they could see a difference beetween thoose who got blamed and scolded for misstakes and those who where encouraged to try again. In the other research they couldn’t find any difference between who got rich and who got poor, inhereted money excluded ofcourse. So it is very much up to chance. Maybe most of them tried, and there are allways those who just glide along and make it.

    But the thing is, Freedom of speech, of thought etc is what’s garantie a small degree of freedom anyway. The media is a bit to powerful right now, but ABs article was in the culture/fiction section and was even moore seen as fiction then ABs news are generally. And regarding that most media in Sweden is Lefties, no, that is stretching it. If you look at ownership maybe, if you look at distributon an frequense, the left are lucky to reach 15%.

  289. [...] israelí, de manifestar publicamente que se distanciaba de las afirmaciones del periodico . En su   Blog ,  Bildt dice que la tradicional libertad de Prensa y de expresión en Suecia está antes que  [...]

  290. mic74 skriver:

    imriz säger:
    augusti 22, 2009 kl 3:16 e m

    She is wrong, the Samés can claim about 1100 years back, a few of uds in the southern region can claim a lot more than that. The Samés are essentually siberians. They have even less to claim then I have.

  291. mic74 skriver:

    # yal67 säger:
    augusti 22, 2009 kl 3:50 e m

    Imriz,

    It is much more interesting to Calculate when will Muslims be 25% of Sweden population than when was 50% of Sweden free of ice.

    I say in 20-25 years.

    That’ way to long with our current policy, they still stamp out citenxship like they did for the Jews in WWII but with more people to do it. And the recipitants are apperently just as thankful as you are. I fully aspect to be inprinoned on the ground of lack of religion before I die, I’m 46 now by the way, there are 3-4,5 milions ethnic Swedes in Sweden. I am all for helping and such, but I do think I am activly discriminated against on the count of my origins.

  292. mic74 skriver:

    yal67 säger:
    augusti 22, 2009 kl 5:07 e m

    Probably correct. Or is Israel up for nonjewish immigration by then?

  293. mic74 skriver:

    imriz säger:
    augusti 22, 2009 kl 9:57 e m

    Actuallh it is ruomored that Oden was from Turkey, We do know that there has been several ehtnic movements in the long past, as do most of the world, it’s mostly in the areas where we all came from that they claim tom be ibreed, and above all was first to discover everthing hundreds off years before the rest…

  294. mic74 skriver:

    rufuszerf: Learn to read Swedish before your accusations. It was a repeat on what a palestinian famely said when they had thier son killed. The last paragraph said it wasn’t entirebly unbelivible. You gave more credible information that you are a pedofile. If you can’t read it, don’t give that kind of comment. I do not really belive anything in the article or that you are a pedofile, do not give me doubts.

  295. mic74 skriver:

    yal67 säger:
    augusti 23, 2009 kl 8:12 f m

    Nice catch, humor is the best way. And do you have any spare livers? How much? Honestly you could get them here with less noise.

  296. mic74 skriver:

    Kachina säger:
    augusti 23, 2009 kl 3:18 e m

    Tja jag höll med dig om en del förut, men du verkar ganska hjärntvättad. När det gäller karikatyrenra så var jag förbannad och tyckte de skulle publiceras mera bara för att jävlas om inte annat, jag såg dom, förstår inte upprördheten. Du kan snacka hur mycket skit som helst om sossarna, men ta ansvar för den skit borgarna har gjort då också.

    Min Spontana reaktion med en systerson och flera bekanta i Thailand när det hände var väl som andras, lite panik. En bekant men inte såå nära vän dog. Men, jag tyckte Sverige överreagerade, de begär ambulanstjänst till andra sidan jordklotet så fort något händer men sitter och ältar om eget ansvar om folk blir sjuka? Sorry, error i hjärnstammen, jag skulle inte orka se en arbetslös eller sjuk i ögonen om jag hade tjötat om det, jag har anställt sådana ja, chef, inte med sådan tankesätt, jag vill ha folk som tänker själva och sätter folket först, med viss modification såklart, vinst ska göras, men det funkar bättre med bra folk. Lite lite minus just nu, men det går över tror jag. IT.

    Jante är småborgare, de har hindrat min kommun i många år

  297. Kachina skriver:

    mic74

    Kort sagt. Agerandet vid karikatyrerna tydde på en karaktärslös regering. Agerandet vid Tsunamin klargjorde att vi hade en totalt inkompetent regering.
    Till och med den italienska visade bättre tåga.

    Vår utrikesminister skall ALDRIG torka upp spyan från våra kvällstidningar.

    Jag tar mig friheten att kritisera både sossar och Allians.

    Alliansen har fått ta emot de flesta av mina rallarsvingar i denna och andra spalter.

  298. flyktingar skriver:

    Kachina:

    Om man inte torkar upp spyor på sin farstu, oavsett vem som kräkts, så är det stor risk för halka. Ja, så luktar det illa och ser inte bra ut när det kommer gäster.

    Om Aftonbladet kommer undan, så har vi fått en ny standard och ett prejudicerande fall för hur antisemitiska ”spyor” kan göras ”rumsrena” utan att någon behöver ”städa”.

  299. soli01 skriver:

    Kachina – du får mitt fulla stöd i alla fall. Här har vi den ordningen att det som skrivs i tidningar etc är något som dess redaktörer får svara för. Hur skulle det bli om regeringen skulle styra denna verksamhet. Man måste tänka längre än näsan räcker!
    ”Spyorna” kan vara obehgliga att tampas med, men lukten får de städa upp själva – de som orsakat den.
    Yttrande- och informationsfriheten ska inte röras – mycket farligt om så sker.
    Vadå Aftonbladet ”komma undan”…

  300. kris08 skriver:

    Läste just en alldeles utmärkt kommentar till affären av den regimkritiske israelen Gideon Levy:
    ”Dåligt Aftonbladet – uselt Israel”

    ”Den israeliska ockupationen är ful, olaglig, brutal och kriminell nog alldeles utan grundlösa anklagelser och historier utan faktagrund. Att publicera sådana berättelser som Aftonbladet gjort är att hjälpa Israel att skyla över de verkliga övergrepp som äger rum på Västbanken och i Gaza varenda dag.”

    ”Fast artikeln i Aftonbladet var bara en oseriös story i en populär svensk kvällstidning. Israel borde ha dementerat historien och inget mer. Men för Israels nationalistiske utrikesminister Avigdor Lieberman, räckte detta inte. Han bestämde sig för att förvandla det till en bilateral skandal och skadade därmed Israel mer än någon tidningshistoria hade kunnat göra.”

    ”Antisemitism finns fortfarande i Europa och kanske även i Sverige, men den automatiska kopplingen mellan kritik och antisemitism är inget annat än en billig manipulation. Enligt denna taktik är det inte vi, de israeliska ockupanterna, som ska ges skulden utan kritikerna, och Israel är bara ett offer, den roll som Israel tycker bäst om.”

    http://www.svd.se/opinion/brannpunkt/artikel_3412125.svd

    Jag hoppas ”flyktingar” läser och begrundar sista stycket…

  301. flyktingar skriver:

    kris08:

    Aftonbladet har publicerat en antisemitisk artikel och gömmer sig bakom yttrandefrihet. För dess konsumenter fungerar israeliska dementier fungerar som kryddan som ”bekräftar” skrönan.

    Största delar av Gideon Levys text är ursäkter för antisemitisk publikation i svensk press och utnyttjande av utrymme för att föra fram av egna synpunkter.

  302. Kachina skriver:

    flyktingar

    Aftonbladet får torka upp spyan själv, antingen på order av domstolen eller av opinionen, en opinion som mer och mer börjar ta avstånd från tidningen, inte bara för artikeln utan för att allt är tillåtet, bara man tjänar pengar. Jag vet många som tar illa vid för att en känd idrottsprofil, ”Spela med mig”, via AB lockar in ungdomar i skuldfällan. Girigheten går före hederligheten, även hos Aftonbladet, både vad gäller annonser och artiklar.

    mic74

    Du skall ha klart för dig att i I/P-konflikten går det INTE ta ställning FÖR någondera parten. Dessa två folk är inbundna i en tankeväv som började spinnas redan på Abrahams tid. Den väven är nu så dammig att ingen signal utifrån kan tränga in. De får helt enkelt lösa det själva, eller så ta död på varandra. Mig gör det detsamma, jag är ändå så gruvligt less på dem att jag bara ber dem, stör mig inte, som nu Liebermann stört oss.

    När det gäller frågan om när invandrarna skall ta över Sverige, är svaret ALDRIG. För det första blir de flesta svenska. Jag känner flera näringsidkare som är genuint svenska. Den andra generationen blir definitivt svenskar Jag har alldeles nyss bevittnat ett försök att behålla sharia-lagar och slöja på en tioårig flicka. Det höll i drygt en vecka, sedan gjorde hon klart att hon är svensk.

    Internet och politiken river gränser i en rasande fart. På etthundra år har vi gått från bya-mentalitet, med medvetanden som sträckte sig i en radie av tio mil. Idag är vi globalt medvetna och inne på upploppet dit där skillnader i ras, religion och nationalitet kommer att utplånas helt.

    Jag struntar fullständigt i om grannen bugar mot Mecka eller mot Manhattan, om han heter Elvis eller Mohammed, bara han accepterar mig som medmänniska.

  303. Kachina skriver:

    flyktingar

    Gideon Levy talar klarspråk, lyssna.

  304. flyktingar skriver:

    Kachina:

    Jag läser Haaretz, Yediot Ahronot, Maariv, Jerusalem Post regelbundet. Gideon Levy har alltid talat klarspråk. Jag har alltid lyssnat. Gideon Levy är en av Israels profeter och en av många israeler som kritiserar ockupationen av Västbanken.

    Även utanför Israel är man kritiska mot Israels ockupation av Västbanken. Somliga är kritiska över judarnas occupation av Palestina. Aftonbladet är det av de ledande svenska medierna som gått längst i sin israelkritik, med demonisering som en ingrediens och det har fortgått i ökande utsträckning under de senaste åren.

    Sett i det ljuset är det inte konstigt att Aftonbladets demonisering av Israel och dess försvarsmakt övergått till antisemitisk hets mot folkgrupp.

    Har Aftonbladet medvetet övergått till att bryta mot svensk lag för att bekämpa Israel eller var det ett misstag?

    Gideon Levy tycker det är dålig journalistik. Jag skulle vilja komplettera: det är brottslig journalistik.

  305. Kachina skriver:

    ”Har Aftonbladet medvetet övergått till att bryta mot svensk lag för att bekämpa Israel eller var det ett misstag? ”

    Trycket att nästa kvartalsrapport skall vara bättre än den föregående, jakten på pengar, fördunklar omdömet.

  306. flyktingar skriver:

    Kachina:

    Varför är det så svårt för Aftonbladet att säga att man begått ett pressetiskt fel? Kan du förklara det för mig?

  307. Kachina skriver:

    Tragiskt nog är det så att publicitet ger pengar. Det spelar ingen roll om det är bra eller dålig publicitet, det säljer lösnummer. En rättegång mot Aftonbladet ökar bara upplagan.

    Sådan är världen idag, men tidningar som lever på den yttersta gränsen av det tillåtna, brukar vara kortlivade. Att upplagan ökar är temporärt, folk läser, tänker och minns. Till slut är inte smörjan värd att betala för.

    Jag tycker att Aftonbladet skall be om ursäkt i ett stort uppslag, erkänna ett journalistiskt hjärnsläpp, göra en pudel.

    Det kommer de att vinna på, i längden.

  308. flyktingar skriver:

    6 september är europeisk judisk kulturdag. 100-tals judiska församlingar över hela Europa kommer att bjuda in till utställningar och föredrag.

    Säkert kommer man servera judisk mat. Ypperligt tillfälle för Aftonbladets fortografer att ta bilder för nya djärva montage.

    Jag tycker man ska ta initiativet och specialinbjuda Donald Boström och Jan Helin. Bara för att man publicerar antisemitiska artiklar behöver det inte betyda att man inte kan nynna de utrotade judarnas vackra sånger som ”Oyfn Pripetchik”, ”Geven Amol Iz A Shtetl”, ”Undzer Stetl Brent”, ”Kinderjohren”, ”Bei Mir Bist Du Schejn”, ”Mein Yiddishe Mame”, och många många fler. På Youtube.

  309. antykatoendek007 skriver:

    Om Alla dessa dogars hycklare och lögnare Calle :

    http://www.varldenidag.se/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5073&Itemid=98

  310. imriz skriver:

    Chris200,
    And I suggest you read ”The complete idiot’s guide to Jewish history and culture” (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=etWHt6tDMCMC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=&f=false)

  311. imriz skriver:

    mic74,

    First of all, It is obvious that you (And Kachina, for that matter) are balanced in your opinions, and not biased – This is something I can respect, even if I don’t agree with everything you say :)

    Now, What I was trying to understand is how commenting on a media publication might offend the freedom of speech or press? Everybody seems to avoid this question.
    I am sure the Swedish goverment comment on publications almost on a daily basis.

    Now, regarding to you comments on history (”old books”) – Considering the fact that ”now” is a very short period of time, all we actually have is the history and the future. Alot of things in this world are determined upon an examination of the past.

    Now, for those who cite the international law –
    the San Remo Conference recognized all the land between the Jordan and the sea, including Jerusalem, as part of the Jewish National Home, based on the Jewish people’s historic rights.

    In 1945, Britain had tried to change the legal status of the country as the Jewish National Home. This attempt was embodied in the Palestine White Paper of 1939, on the eve of the Holocaust, and in various subsequent ordinances enacted by the British mandatory government, which made it very difficult for Jewish refugees to enter the country or {for Jews} to buy real estate there. Nevertheless, this British attempt to change the country’s status was rejected as illegal by the League of Nations Permanent Mandates Commission in June 1939.
    When the UN was founded in 1945, it reaffirmed through its Charter the existing territorial rights of peoples as they had been before the war (Article 80).

    But now you might say, the UN also promised at least some of the land to the Arabs, through the Partition Plan! Well, that resolution was passed by the General Assembly – the General Assembly resolutions on political issues are merely recommendations.
    Only the Security Council can make binding resolutions, according to the Charter.

    After the war in 1947 had begun the UN made no effort to prevent the invasion of the country by Arab states, to prevent Arab attacks on Jews within the country or to eliminate the Arab siege of the Jews in Jerusalem, a city where Jews had been the majority at least since 1870. Thus Israel did not feel bound by the Partition recommendation. Professor Eugene Rostow, an authority on international law, has pointed out that the Arab war on Israel of 1947-49, ”made the Partition Plan irrelevant.”

    So, if we sum it up,the Partition Plan was merely an Assembly recommendation, whereas the San Remo decision of 1920 was law.

  312. imriz skriver:

    I also forgot to mention that the point is to show that as far as the international law cares, all the land between the Jordan and the sea, including Jerusalem, belongs to Israel, and that Israel should give SOME (without addressing what land exactly) land back in exchange of _peace_ (United Nations Security Council Resolution 242).

  313. un2here skriver:

    Greed is G-d?

  314. imriz skriver:

    un2here,
    Where do you see greed?
    I see the willingness to reconcile inspite historical and legal rights (or are you again forgetting the peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, the agreement which gave autonomy to the PLO, and the recent withdrawl from Gaza), while the other side doesn’t even agree to recognize the state of Israel.
    Do you have any useful and/or relevant input, or are you going to resort to ad hominem?

  315. chris200 skriver:

    @imriz

    > Israel should give SOME (without addressing what land exactly) land back in exchange of _peace_ (United Nations Security Council Resolution 242).

    ”Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict” (UN resolution 242)

    http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1967/scres67.htm

    This means withdraw to within the 1949 armistice borders as it was before the 1967 conflict.

  316. un2here skriver:

    Imritz,

    That you have turned Gaza into an outdoor jail pretending that this should somehow equal to withdrawal is one thing. Another is that you are shooting randomly at fishermen on the beach – who can hardly pose any threat to any Jew.

    The fishermen were guilty of what? Being on the beach while Palestinian? Suspicious boat maintenance? Trying to feed people?

    This is happening right now while you are trying to convince me of the virtues of the Jewish people? I tell you, you have a very hard sell in front you.

  317. imriz skriver:

    chris200,

    This is an interesting interpretation, as the document doesn’t state what territories exactly (more specificly doesn’t state *all* the territories) nor the 1949 armistice you mention.
    More specifically, Lord Caradon (the British ambassador to the UN, which drafted the resolution) said that ”We didn’t say there should be a withdrawal to the ’67 line; we did not put the ‘the’ in, we did not say all the territories, deliberately.”
    George Brown, British Foreign Secretary in 1967, said that ”Before we submitted it to the Council, we showed it to Arab leaders. The proposal said ‘Israel will withdraw from territories that were occupied’, and not from ‘the’ territories, which means that Israel will not withdraw from all the territories”

    Eugene V Rostow, U.S. Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs in 1967 and one of the drafters of the resolution said that ”Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338… rest on two principles, Israel may administer the territory until its Arab neighbors make peace; and when peace is made, Israel should withdraw to ‘secure and recognized borders’, which need not be the same as the Armistice Demarcation Lines of 1949″

    You should also note that there is nothing in that resolution that directly address the San Remo definition of Israel.

    What the resolution also requires is the ”Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force” – The arabs never accepted that (again, they doesn’t even agree to recognize the stat e of Israel), why aren’t you protesting against that too?

  318. chris200 skriver:

    @imriz

    > the San Remo Conference recognized all the land between the Jordan and the sea, including Jerusalem, as part of the Jewish National Home, based on the Jewish people’s historic rights.

    No, not as a Jewish state. See my comment above posted at ”augusti 22, 2009 kl 10:47 f m”. If you have sources to back your claim, preferably declaration quotes or similar, then please present them.

    > this British attempt to change the country’s status was rejected as illegal by the League of Nations Permanent Mandates Commission in June 1939

    The Commission had the status of an advisory body. Since WW2 broke out in 1939, the White Paper never came before the Council of the League, the deciding body.

    The Brittish Peel Commission recommended in 1937 that Palestine be partitioned into two states, one Arab the other Jewish (on 33% of the land). The Brittish Woodhead Commission recommended in 1938 another partition with 5% of the land for a Jewish state. These were recommendations, not policy. The Brittish White Paper of 1939 was a policy paper issued by the British government under Neville Chamberlain. It limited Jewish immigration to Palestine in light of the tension it was creating (from 6% Jews 1914 to 17% 1931 to 33% 1947) and envisioned a shared democratic state for Jews and Palestinians:

    ”His Majesty’s Government believe that the framers of the Mandate in which the Balfour Declaration was embodied could not have intended that Palestine should be converted into a Jewish State against the will of the Arab population of the country. … His Majesty’s Government therefore now declare unequivocally that it is not part of their policy that Palestine should become a Jewish State. … The objective of His Majesty’s Government is the establishment within 10 years of an independent Palestine State … The independent State should be one in which Arabs and Jews share government in such a way as to ensure that the essential interests of each community are safeguarded.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939

    > the General Assembly resolutions on political issues are merely recommendations

    Reducing UN resolutions to merely recommendations swings both ways. When the state of Israel was declared in 1948, it did so on the basis of UN resolution 181. With UN resolution 181 as merely recommendation, the state of Israel had no claim to any borders nor statehood. Even if we reinterpret the Israeli declaration of state as based on the League of Nations decision 1922 (affirming San Remo 1920), it falls because the League of Nations never determined any borders nor states.

    I also note that pro-Israel commentators usually critisize the Palestinian and Arab side for rejecting UN resolution 181. However, if Israel is supposedly able to reject the resolution on the basis of it being a recommendation, then so can others.

  319. un2here skriver:

    - ”within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force”

    Israel is routinely threatening each and every of her neighbors, be that bombing the Aswan Dam, drowning the Egyptians or bombing Lebanese Water development projects or bombing Iranian power plants … And thats on the easy days when her brave fighters isn’t actually target practicing upon unarmed civilians.

    The ME needs protection, alright – not least from Israel.

  320. imriz skriver:

    un2here,
    regarding Gaza –
    Why doesn’t the fishermen also blame the Hamas for using the sea to smuggle warfare into Gaza? Why don’t you? Why don’t you protest against the attacks from Gaza on Israeli civilian targets, or do you think Israel should bilndly open the borders while sacrificing the basic security of it’s citizens?
    Why doesn’t the UN do anything about the smuggling of warfare? Why didn’t the UN do anything about the Hamas using their facilities as launching pads/ammo dumps/sniper positions?

    I never claimed we are saints (in fact, I said I know we are not), but you are an hyporcrite for not demanding and condemning the wrong doings of the Palestinians, and for ignoring historical and legal facts.

  321. chris200 skriver:

    @imriz

    ”Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war… Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict” (UN resolution 242)

    This is plain English to me. Interpreting this as obliging Israel to withdraw from any symbolic dunam of land and keep occupying the rest is just cynical. It is like interpreting ”right to live in peace” as meaning peace sometimes; because where does it say ”peace all the time”?

  322. un2here skriver:

    Oh, but I am protesting. But against the blockade, against the theft of land, against the denial of basic human rights for the Palestinians – those guys who once welcomed your grand-grandfathers on their soil, remember?

    Cast Lead was an eyeopener – or is, since we are now homing in on winter again with Israel still continuing to deny rebuilding and a return to normal captivity.

    Golda Meir may have told you that the land was empty. Obviously it wasn’t. Deal with it!

  323. imriz skriver:

    Chris200,
    ”Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”

    ”Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connexion of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country”

    ”Article 4.

    An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognized as a public body for the purpose of advising and cooperating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration, to assist and take part in the development of the country.

    The Zionist Organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate shall be recognized as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty’s Government to secure the cooperation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

    ”Article 2.

    The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

    The phrase “in Palestine”, another expression found in the Balfour Declaration that generated much controversy, referred to the whole country, including both Cisjordan and Transjordan. It was absurd to imagine that this phrase could be used to indicate that only a part of Palestine was reserved for the future Jewish National Home, since both were created simultaneously and used interchangeably, with the term “Palestine” pointing out the geographical location of the future independent Jewish state. Had “Palestine” meant a partitioned country with certain areas of it set aside for Jews and others for Arabs, that intention would have been stated explicitly at the time the Balfour Declaration was drafted and approved and later adopted by the Principal Allied Powers. No such allusion was ever made in the prolonged discussions that took place in fashioning the Declaration and ensuring it international approval.

    There is therefore no juridical or factual basis for asserting that the phrase ”in Palestine” limited the establishment of the Jewish National Home to only a part of the country. On the contrary, Palestine and the Jewish National Home were synonymous terms, as is evidenced by the use of the same phrase in the second half of the Balfour Declaration which refers to the existing non-Jewish communities ”in Palestine”, clearly indicating the whole country. Similar evidence exists in the preamble and terms of the Mandate Charter.

    The San Remo Resolution on Palestine combined the Balfour Declaration with Article 22 of the League Covenant. This meant that the general provisions of Article 22 applied to the Jewish people exclusively, who would set up their home and state in Palestine. There was no intention to apply Article 22 to the Arabs of the country, as was mistakenly concluded by the Palestine Royal Commission which relied on that article of the Covenant as the legal basis to justify the partition of Palestine, apart from the other reasons it gave. The proof of the applicability of Article 22 to the Jewish people, including not only those in Palestine at the time, but those who were expected to arrive in large numbers in the future, is found in the Smuts Resolution, which became Article 22 of the Covenant. It specifically names Palestine as one of the countries to which this article would apply. There was no doubt that when Palestine was named in the context of Article 22, it was linked exclusively to the Jewish National Home, as set down in the Balfour Declaration, a fact everyone was aware of at the time, including the representatives of the Arab national movement, as evidenced by the agreement between Emir Feisal and Dr. Chaim Weizmann dated January 3, 1919 as well as an important letter sent by the Emir to future US Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter dated March 3, 1919. In that letter, Feisal characterized as “moderate and proper” the Zionist proposals presented by Nahum Sokolow and Weizmann to the Council of Ten at the Paris Peace Conference on February 27, 1919, which called for the development of Palestine into a Jewish commonwealth with extensive boundaries. The argument later made by Arab leaders that the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate for Palestine were incompatible with Article 22 of the Covenant is totally undermined by the fact that the Smuts Resolution – the precursor of Article 22 – specifically included Palestine within its legal framework.

  324. imriz skriver:

    Chris200,
    Are you confusing Palestinians with Philistines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines) again?

    Your one-sided protesting is again an evidence to your hypocrisy.

  325. imriz skriver:

    un2here,
    When did the *state of Israel* threatened bombing the Aswan Dam or drowning the Egyptians?
    Are you *once again* ignoring the fact Israel already made peace with two of it’s former enemies and gave back land in exchange?

  326. un2here skriver:

    Your one-sided protesting is again an evidence to your hypocrisy.

    And pray tell, why should I sympathize with your ways of running the circus? That’s just too funny … Really, If you haven’t yet sensed that I am not at all in support of you, then that would be an incorrect interpretation.

  327. un2here skriver:

    Imritz, you already know this .. Say are you having a good laugh while I am busy picking out the relevant quotes from the archives? :-D Anyways:

    2001 – ”Mubarak continues to act against us and to travel for consultations with Saddam Hussein. If he carries out his threat and puts forces into the Sinai, it would be an example of a (crossing) of the red line to which we would have to respond strongly, including by bombing the Aswan Dam.”

    Avigdor Lieberman, current Israeli Foreign Minister.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE52U3FU20090401

  328. imriz skriver:

    un2here,
    Of course I knew who said that, and I was waiting to see how you will present it.
    Avigdor Lieberman did not threat to bomb the Aswan Dam, and the whole sentence should be read in context.
    The Israel-Egypt peace aggreement disallows Egypt to put military forces into Sinai. At the time, Egypt threatened to do exactly that, and Lieberman addressed the possibility it would do that.
    It is also worth mentioning that the fact Egypt threatened to do so is a casus belli.

    Again, you twist facts.

  329. un2here skriver:

    Ahh … I see.

    So he isn’t walking around threatening to wipe Egypt off the map all the time, only sometimes – when he is afraid?

    Well, that should calm down the Egyptians a little.

  330. chris200 skriver:

    @imriz

    > The phrase “in Palestine”, another expression found in the Balfour Declaration that generated much controversy, referred to the whole country, including both Cisjordan and Transjordan. … the Smuts Resolution – the precursor of Article 22 – specifically included Palestine within its legal framework.

    When you copy-paste such a long piece of text written by Howard Grief, it is appropriate to reference the source, since it is not your text. This and more of Howard’s far-fetched arguments can be found here:

    http://www.acpr.org.il/English-Nativ/02-issue/grief-2.htm

  331. imriz skriver:

    un2here,
    You failed to address the fact Egypt threatned to break the peace treaty, or is that irreleveant in your eyes?
    Second, you made it sound like Israel is making threats towards the arab country on a daily basis and all you could come up with is one sentence from a coaliation parlament memeber (if I remember correctly, he wasn’t a minister at the time, and sure not the foreign minister – this event took place 8 years in 2001), speaking about Egypt’s threat to break the peace treaty?
    So who is under repeated threats? Israel recieves threats at almost a daily basis from the Arab world.

  332. imriz skriver:

    chris200,
    Can you address his claims, or are you just going to call them ”far fetched”? :)

  333. imriz skriver:

    By the way, why aren’t you protesting against what Jordan is doing to the Palestinians? In fact, Jordan is the Palestinian state – It is part of the ancient Israel and has a majority of Palestinians, which are opressed by a beduin minority.
    Did anyone say hypocricity yet?

  334. un2here skriver:

    - You failed to address the fact Egypt threatned to break the peace treaty

    But my view upon the Israeli demand that Egypt can’t have defense forces on its own lands wouldn’t be helpful to you anyway.

  335. chris200 skriver:

    @imriz

    The Howard Grief essay is well-written non-sense, i.e. far-fetched. As such it may fool people who don’t know anything about the referenced things like San Remo, Article 22, and so on. I don’t mind addressing specific claims, but in this case there is a frenzy of wild claims tied together in wild ways. I find it difficult to even trace and understand Howard’s arguments (particularly the second part of your quoted section), so that makes the job of addressing them ridiculously complex. I encourage people to read about San Remo, Article 22, and so on, and then compare with Howard’s interpretation.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Remo_conference
    en.wikisource.org/wiki/Palestine_Mandate (source of imriz’ quotes)
    tinyurl.com/Article22LN
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine

    In the above I have not linked to the ”Smuts Resolution”. That is because there is no such resolution. As an early draft of Article 22 it has no significant legal implication, and even if it did, I would certainly disagree that it ”meant that the general provisions of Article 22 applied to the Jewish people exclusively”. And even if it had that meaning, I find it difficult, given what Article 22 contains, to make further sense of it.

    I also note that the declarations fell short of Zionist expectations as they used ”in Palestine” to avoid committing entire Palestine, and ”national home” instead of ”state” to avoid committing to Jewish exclusivity. This is in line with the facts that Israel was in 1948 not declared and recognized in entire Palestine, and declared and recognized as ”the state of Israel” rather than ”Jewish state”.

  336. emeishar skriver:

    Your comments on Israel, free speech and that lie-filled article in your domestic newspaper demonstrate your individual, and as representative of your country, your nation’s views.

    The media, and seems that yours is no different, will publish anything to create sensationary headlines, but perhaps in Sweden – by looking at history – it goes far deeper than that, when it comes to Jews…

    The role of government – and this is where you, dear minister, come into the picture – is to preserve democracy ethically and without slander and dishonest biased reporting that lacks proper investigation of facts! the Role of a democratic government is to maintain order, law and equality for ALL people. how is that goal supported by your actions??? is slander the new law in Sweden?

    You failed miserably in doing so, an in keeping a stance of avoidance while hiding behind “freedom of speech (quite a poor argument, I must say), you are actually reviving history and lessons unlearned. You also choose to ignore the power of media influence over public opinion and by keeping silent you risk becoming a latent accomplice to the ideas expressed in that article.

  337. [...] Carl Bildt tar nu bladet från munnen och uttalar sig i Boströmaffären, i alla fall den del där ambasssadören i Irael gick ut och [...]

  338. [...] att den gode strebern Carl även är utrikesminister i vår regering. Trots det använder han sin blogg som kanal att kommentera Aftonbladets artikel om påstådd antisemitism. Han använder sitt mest personliga sätt att kommunicera för att nå ut på rätt sätt, sitt [...]

  339. jfredriksson87 skriver:

    As I see all this talk about ”antisemitism” I can’t help but to throw up even more on the jews, you expect to call everyone and everything critical to the war-crimes you in Israel commit against the Palestinian people antisemitic? this just proves that you lack the ability to see beyond your religion and actually take it as critique towards YOU as a nation. there is nothing hostile against the jews in accusing a nations soldiers to rob the dead of their intestines. YOU are the ones making that connection. there was no one accusing you for using virgin-child blood in rituals of any sort here, it was a matter of grave robbery. any reasonable human would understand that, but with the USA feeding you and having your back it’s easy to get too bold. remember the holocaust? it’s over 50years ago. those poor souls that had to live that are mostly dead or dying of natural causes by now, you should be ashamed of how you defend this war and the crimes you commit with their suffering. shame on you Israel. you make it sound like the whole world was a part of the nazi-party, but hey, we ALL held your back on that one. don’t forget that. now get the fuck off our Carl, he is probably the least corrupt politician we have and that’s why he won’t back down on this matter. freedom of speech is probably nothing you have heard of since they don’t have that in non-democratic nations.

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