For those interested in the daily reality of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank I recommend reading this describtion from the city of Hebron.
It’s written by a representative of the Israeli Policy Forum of the United States. He and I shared much of this experience when we were in Hebron during the Palestine presidential elections in January.
Sir.
So, you share his views on Hebron you say? Let’s go back in history (yeah you know, I belong to that kind of people that never again will forget the atrocities forced against the Jews), since I seriously doubt history has changed any since we exchanged opinions earlier on your blog. But so let’s pick up and read Natanel Beskow travel journey (famous Swedish Elsa Beskows husband and a Christian vicar) from 1926:
”I Palestina och Syrien”
”Hebroniterna äro kända för att vara de mest fanatiska och främlingsfientliga muhammedanerna i Palestina” s.67.
A quick translation:
”The Hebronites are known to be the most fanatical and foreign hostile Mohammedans in Palestine”Are you saying their attitude has shifted since 1926, and they all now instead have become all goodly peace-loving examples after their pogroms-massacre 1929, and their ethnical cleansing after 1948 against the Jewish inhabitants, that thereby perished after having their property stolen and looted, and thereafter two decades of Arabic imposed apartheid ruled? How come Jewish settlements are an obstacle to peace and not the Arabic one’s? 1925 Hebron had some 15.000 Arabic Muslims inhabitants, and according to your recommended article it say’s they today are 160.000. You believe that the Muslims have quadrupled by natural birth numbers or illegal influx? Ever heard about the area called “sniper alley” in Hebron? It was only a couple of years ago that shalhevet pass, a 10 month toddler tucked away firmly in her stroller, when an Arabic sniper deliberate aimed for the headshot and executed her in cold blood. So questions still stands, do you wish to reward islamofacism and Arabic aggression wars along with current ongoing terror?
Yes, I do share his assessment of the Hebron situation.
And you should note that it’s written by a prominent American Jewish observer, although one in favour of reconciliation and peace.
I have been there several times.
It’s true that it’s a hardline city. Hamas probably has more support there than in many other places.
But the climate of confrontation produced by the settlements are a very substantial parts of this.
If you are interested, you can just go and ask the Israely conscript soldiers who are sent there to guard what they often consider religious fanatics.
Shalom Bildt
I will tell you a little secret; I have been there too. As a volunteer within the Israeli army. Several times btw. Just as my late father. Who held a officers rank. So I don’t need to “just go and ask the Israely conscript soldiers”. I can speak from previous personal experience. And let me assure you, wearing the IDF fatigue armed with an M-16 is a good feeling. Because it basically means that Jews nowadays instead can defend themselves and strike back. Now let me fill you in on some clues regarding the Israeli army that you just seemed to wish to be speaking for. It’s a peoples army where all soldier will follow whatever orders are given by their higher officers, unless the order clearly are illegal, and probably one reason why you never will see a military coup in Israel -since the whole Israeli society are involved. Now, like in all free societies, there are of course different opinions, and regular Israelis does not differ in that area. As well as you can find leftist “refusniks” (that are praised to the skies by anti-Israelis), there are now increasing growing movements of Israeli soldiers that has either refused, or stated that they will refuse, to aid or participate in any other way in the eviction of civilian Israeli communities.
Needless to say, any soldier that refuses any legal order are disobeying soldiers and will be dealt with, in a court marshal, and most probably be sentenced to military jail. This since personal political opinions has little place in the chain of command in the army were orders are to be followed.
But since we both now are civilian we can continue this discussion on the main subject, let me ask you what it is you are trying to insinuate or imply, that the logical consequences should be that ancient from time immoral Jewish mainland’s of Judea/Samaria, in this case represented by Hebron, should be uprooted and judenrein again? Because of the “troublesome” Jewish civilians (but not the Muslim Arabic islamofacist) “settlers”? Big mistake, Israelis are today loudly speaking about public national referendum on the new disengagement plans from Gaza alone, which they previously already within Likud have voted for against Sharon (and remember, Sharon previously had this exact same campaigning as his political platform against Mitzna). This latest turns has made more and more Israelis are looking at Sharon with disbelief and distrust.
For most, as in an overwhelming majority, Israeli security will always come before any other subjects amongst the regular Israeli citizens. Israeli communities are now Israel’s core on the ground security, and a majority of Israelis know that, based on experience from previous wars -that stopped the Arabic ongoing promises of complete Jewish annihilation.
And you speak of the stronghold of Hamas in Hebron, and “the climate of confrontation produced by the [Jewish] settlement” against them? Good riddance I say, since the Hamas charters clearly are speaking about genocide onto all Jews (Note, just not the Israelis) in the world, and until they drop those holy mass murder instructions of upcoming Holocaust they deserve all grievances the Israelis can produce. Why even Sharon has been talking in the clear about total destruction of the terrorist group Hamas.
Dear Sir!
As far as I know, Palestinian leadership demands the Hebron Jews to be expelled from the town again. Do you think the Hebron Jews’ has right to stay in the town?
What do you generally think about the idea of expelling of the West Banks Jews from their homes to open a way to an ethnically clean Arab State?
Should Israel expel it’s Arabs too?
Hello. I just wanted to question your description of ”the daily reality of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank”. The situation in Hebron is very tense, and the abuses between the communities are disturbing and completely unacceptable. I in no way condone this violence, be it from Jews or Arabs. But it’s not representative of the situation in the rest of the West Bank. This is also confirmed by your friend in the article that you’re linking to: ”Last month, I visited H-2 despite being told by an Israeli friend that it is ‘the worst place in the West Bank.’
I’m not exactly sure I understand why you posted this article, unless you also intend to post accounts of stone-throwing Palestinians against motorists in Israel or about terrorist activities in Israel and the disputed territories.
I may remind you that Hebron is not some kind of alien place for Jews. It’s Judaism’s second holiest city after Jerusalem. As you know, the Machpela cave is there (from which Jordanian occupation authorities barred Jewish worshippers for 19 years) and King David was crowned there. Jews have lived there for thousands of years. As indicated in your article, Jewish inhabitants were massacred there in 1929 by the Arabs, and then removed by the British. They were later cleansed by the Jordanian army when they invaded the area in 1948.
How come you are not calling many of the Arabs there ”settlers” (since they came during the Jordanian occupaton and annexation)?
The only reason why there needs to be so many soldiers there today is because the Arab inhabitants are (and have been) attacking their Jewish neighbours. Not the other way around.
As long as this kind of intolerance and hatred is maintained in Palestinian society, there needs to be protection. It would be inconceivable to expect that the city should be purged of its Jews, just to satisfy Arab intolerance and apartheid.
I think the discussions here could be more fruitful if you chose to highlight both sides of the story.
Here are encyclopedic links to more reading on Hebron:
Link 1Link 2
I would certainly hope that in the future there would be the possibility of Jews to live in Palestine under its laws in the same way as Palestinians are living in Israel proper under its laws.
But I regret to say that I think the vast majority – probably all – of the Jewish settlets in Hebron would refuse to accept this.
I agree that Hebron is a particularly complicated place.
It is a holy place to both Jews and Muslims – the Prophet Abraham was the prophet of all.
You might have dealt with the Palestinians in Hebron only with an M16, and felt good about that.
I have been there with committed Jews that sat down and had coffee with them.
That’s the report that’s worth reading.
Shalom again Mr Bildt!
“I You might have dealt with the Palestinians in Hebron only with an M16, and felt good about that.”Oh on the humanity, what horror, the Jews have guns these days. G-d grief, and they actually return fire and shoot back when fired upon. Heavens dear lord, where’s the world coming too. Here is a strange thought for the mind, don’t shoot at the Jews and they might not shoot back?… Seriously now, No, that’s was not what I stated. Second time you clearly misunderstand what I wrote, is it becoming a habit? See this is what I wrote: “wearing the IDF fatigue armed with an M-16 is a good feeling. Because it basically means that Jews nowadays instead can defend themselves.”And this felling can be traced and goes back to when on European soil turned six million innocent defenseless civilians Jews into ashes in industrialized genocide, where it today serves as an eternal graveyard monument. Jewish lessons came hard after that. For your (and your blogreaders) information I can personally vouch for that Israeli army basic training included visits in Arabic villages, trying to foster peaceful relationships and mutual understandings. At least it was like that prior to the forced on Oslo-war. Speaking of that, do you feel that outside Nordic politicians can continue to demand credibility from the Israelis? Anyhow, next time you visit Israel, ask any Israeli soldier about the doctrine “purity of arms”, don’t know if they still uses it. After Arab security officers in joint security missions patrolling with Israeli counterparts, without any previous provocations was shouting Allah Akbar before drawing their sidearms and blowing away the Israelis. Such incidents can have the effect and tend to stretch the common Israeli trust. Perhaps you remember the Ramallah lynching where unarmed Israeli soldiers took a wrong turn, and was beaten to death and thrown out from second floor windows of the local police station, where the rampaging crowd had a festival with the beaten beyond recognition corpses?
Or do you think that an unarmed Jew is more respected than an armed by Muslim Arabs? Or are you of the opinion that the Swedish police should equally be disarmed as well? Like for instance during the Gothenburg riots, compared to Israelis daily clashes situation, a walk in the park. But this subject is quite frankly tiresome, unless you want to continue on it?
See, this next part I find more interesting, since I asked you numerous times if you wish to reward Islamofacism, illegal Arabist aggression wars, and in-between (and current) ongoing terrorism.
“I would certainly hope that in the future there would be the possibility of Jews to live in Palestine under its laws in the same way as Palestinians are living in Israel proper under its laws.”Shall I take this as an affirmative answer that you wish to reward pure evil in its current crudest form? Why? How can an enlighten politician as yourself with free accessibility to facts findings (and probably a staff of experts at your disposal) defend or promote such a decision? Can you explain please? A clearly warped community that today endorses child soldiers, and produces homicidal mass murdering maniacs. By proven PA contribution that rules school, media and mosques, an “society” who plasters the towns with idol posters of the killers, while publicly celebrating the terrorist atrocities. And If Muslim Arabs already has 22 states ranging from east Africa to central Asia, don’t you think it could perhaps be a bit greedy to claim for yet another state? Or that Muslim Arabs at least can show and produce one democracy before asking for a 23:rd state, (which they already themselves has turned downed three times)?
”But I regret to say that I think the vast majority – probably all – of the Jewish settlets in Hebron would refuse to accept this.”Guess why there is virtually no Jews left in the rest of the Middle East? Do you know what dhimma means in reality? (http://www.dhimmitude.org) In short it means that non-Muslims are to be treated like secondary class people, without any basic human rights, (as the west knows it) under and subdued to Islamic culture. It goes for Jews as well as Christians. You might wanna consult ask the druze, kurds, copts, maronites, assyrics that have fled there previous homelands in the thousands what they think about that practiced system.
”It is a holy place to both Jews and Muslims – the Prophet Abraham was the prophet of all.”This is quite interesting also, since it defies all logics, if we are to trust religious tales now. Abraham lived two, not one, millenniums before the dyslexic prophet Mohammad invented his religion of Islam. Further, if you wish going into specifics, the Jewish patriarch Abraham sent away the slave mother of Ishmael since he wanted nothing to do with her or her out of marriage offspring.
I have been there with committed Jews that sat down and had coffee with them. That’s the report that’s worth reading.One final question, did you take any time to visit any Israeli Jewish victims of Muslim Arabic terror, in the hospital emergency wards? Or visited Jewish devastated parents, sat down and listened to what they had to say after losing their only child after an terror attack? I can recommend that, and that was what I did last time I visited Israel. Try to look them in the eyes and say that “Palestinians” deserve a state on Judea/Samaria.
Sincerely
Simulev.
I get sorry when I see the hatred coming out of you.
There are certainly those preaching hatred and practizing terror on the Palestinian side as well.
But the democratic process is now starting to marginalize them. Abu Mazen has been very, very clear on this.
Even Ariel Sharon has expressed his appreciation.
You not only deny the Muslims the Prophet Abraham – I guess you deny him to the Christians as well – but also want to deny them the state that now has the support of the United Nations, the European Union, the United States, Russia as well as the new government of the state of Israel.
I don’t know if you envisage creating an armed apartheid Israeli state on the West Bank, or just expelling all Palestinians and take it over.
In either case, such a policy will spell the end of democratic Israel and any support for it in the outside world.
It would be a true tragedy. I believe a new Middle East can be built on Israelis and Arabs working together.
I’m only reassured by my knowledge that your extreme views are considered extreme and unrepresentative in Israel as well.
Mr Bildt.
Are you misunderstanding something again? What I have clearly have advocated is the inherent right for the sovereign democracy of Israel to invoke the universal moral right of self-defense. A right that are stipulated by the UN article 51.
Do I deny Arabs a state? Yes certainly on the promised ruins of current Israeli democracy. Do you support the opposite? Otherwise, Muslim Arabs already has 22 states. Problems are that Muslim Arabs rather see the destruction of Israel, according to their own ongoing preachments backed by more than 20.000 attacks the latest years and polls, than a new state. And in all honestly, what Mazen says after 40 years as the serial-lying dictator thug Arafats right hand, a man that who’s academic output are Holocaust denial, one should trust his “promises”?
Should I feel joy and happiness when an overwhelming majority of the Muslim Arabs in the disputed areas has been planning and plotting and are supportive for Jewish genocide invoked by relentless terrorism? And the world clearly wants to reward such barbarism in terrorist appeasement slicing up Jewish since time immoral heartland. Should such appalling behavior be viewed with anything else than contempt and dismay?
You want to advocate towards peaceful endings? What then about instead of (the Arabic invoked propaganda) renaming Judea into “Palestine” and promoting it to obviously become judenrein to instead rename back Jordan to Palestine?
The conflict with Islam is old and well understood. We have got all the answers and know truly well how to handle the situation.
It is hard to believe that even a proclaimed new ‘Muhammed’ could alter the context of Islam. As nothing is changed, and nothing is learned, worse scenarios lurks ahead.
Mr Bildt,
You disappoint me with your quite unbalanced and biased views on the Middle East Conflict. I have voted for the Swedish Moderate Party all of my life – I sincerely hope that your views don’t reflect the official Positions of the Moderate Party (which to my knowledge always have been a vocal supporter of the only democratic and liberal state in the Middle East). If your opinions are signaling some kind of change in the Moderate Party position, I’m sorry to say that my long history of support for the Moderate Party will be history…
Sincerely,
Dan
Mr Bildt.
“You not only deny the Muslims the Prophet Abraham – I guess you deny him to the Christians as well” I most certainly do not. Please explain to me how the Jewish patriarch Abraham could be a Muslim some two thousand years before Islam existed?
“- but also want to deny them the state that now has the support of the United Nations, the European Union, the United States, Russia as well as the new government of the state of Israel.”While I am grateful for your answers, I am however more interested in your personal answers regarding your own politics, than seeing you pointing towards other political leaders, and their various agendas.
Meanwhile, time for a small history revaluation for those who might suffer from amnesia.
Just prior to World War II, the leaders of our world gathered to speak about “the issue” of Czechoslovakia. Stalin representing Communist Russia, Hitler representing national socialistic Germany and Neville Chamberlain representing the colonial rule Britannia. They agreed, that the Czechoslovakian sudet-land somehow belonged to Germany, over the head of the democracy of Czechoslovakia. A happy Chamberlain returned to his British parliament proudly declaring the now infamous line “I believe there is Peace in our time”. Adolph Hitler a couple of months later proved that the land he just had tricked the world, to gain without firing a bullet, the natural mountain defense lines of the sudet-land, and it was the first stage of raping Europe in blazing flames.
Now, in your opinion, was that decision rightfully just because outside political leaders could and overruled the democracy of Czechoslovakia? If not, why does the world suggest a very similar repetition now aimed at the only Jewish democracy?
“I get sorry when I see the hatred coming out of you.[...]
I’m only reassured by my knowledge that your extreme views are considered extreme and unrepresentative in Israel as well.”Really? It’s not that you are trying to dismiss me (and common logics) with judgmental harsh words? Meanwhile, let these words, written already in 1996, echo:
‘The Arab campaign to keep all of West Bank free of Jews, like the campaign of the 1930s to keep Palestine free of Jews, may have garnered international support, but this is based, now as then, not on justice but on injustice. Thus the Jewish state, which was squeezed by violations of international promises and by Arab conquest to an indefensible coast, that saw Jews forcibly expelled from the ancient Jewish cities they had come to rebuild, that was attacked by Arab forces from the surrounding mountains, is now being told by virtually the entire world that it must accept a confined and stifling existence on the narrow shoreline dominated by a hostile ”Judenrein” Palestinian state on these same mountains, the very heart of the Jewish home. If Lord Cecil had proclaimed “Judea for the Jews. Arabia for the Arabs” the world was now saying “Arabia for the Arabs –And Judea too”. The reversal of casualties was now complete.
[…]
‘For the PLO is an Pan-Arab Trojan horse, a gift that the Arabs has been trying to coax the West into accepting for over twenty years, so that the West in turn can force Israel to let in the gates. The Arabs paint their gift up prettily with legitimacy, with the pathos of its plight, with expressions of love for the cherished ideas of freedom, justice and peace. Yet no matter how its dressed up to conceal the fact, the ultimate aim of this gift remains; to be allowed within Israel’s defensive wall, to be parked on the hills overlooking Tel-Aviv, whence it can perform its grisly task. Every inch of western acceptance –the cover stories, the banquets, the observer status, the embassies, and any territory the PLO has ever been able to get their hands on –it uses to push it ever closer to its goal. And while it is difficult for uninitiated Westerners to imagine the Arabs destroying Israel as the Greeks laid waste to Troy, it all to easy for anyone familiar with Israel’s terrain to imagine, precisely as Arafat has promised, that a PLO state implanted ten miles from the beaches of Tel Aviv would be a mortal danger to the Jewish state.’
Know who wrote that? Yes that’s right, it’s your colleague Mr Benjamin Netanyahu in his self-explanatory book I previously just had recommended for you. The anti-terrorist expert and formerly elite soldier who also are the former Prime Minister of Israel and top head within Israel’s democratic ruling party Likud. I believe he could be regarded as representative for some Israelis?
Sincerely
Simulev
According to the Koran, Islam has always existed, so Islam has to be much older than Abraham, and we are all the prisoners of Islam.
Mr Bildt, it has past four day’s since you stated this; ”But the democratic process is now starting to marginalize them [a.k.a. terrorists]. Abu Mazen has been very, very clear on this”about the new PA leader. Just for your information:
Abbas okays ‘collaborator’ executions”In the first decision of its kind since he succeeded Yasser Arafat, Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas has ratified death sentences against three Palestinians found guilty of ”collaboration” with Israel.[...]the three were Gaza Strip residents who had been convicted of ”high treason” for tipping off Israeli security forces about the whereabouts of wanted gunmen.”[a.k.a. terrorists]If Israel co-operates with Arabs that tells where wanted terrorist massmurderers hides, is obviosly to be regarded as high treason according to Mazen. Seems that the only groups that are beeing marginalized right now by Abu Mazen, is those Arabs who does not want terrorists as neighbours.
And why would Mr Mazen do something like that?
Fugitives to join PA security forces”About 350 Palestinian gunmen will be incorporated into the Palestinian Authority security forces soon as part of a deal reached between PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas and leaders of all the Palestinian factions, The Jerusalem Post has learned.
The militiamen, who are on Israel’s list of wanted terrorists, belong to various factions, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad.”You are still sure that you are backing and supporting the right leader?
Once democracy is implemented, and similar to postwar Germany, criminal records might be widespread within the authorities for a considerable time, but hopefully be handled according to law.
Negotiations should take relevant historical facts into account, preventing cleansing and let the settlers contribute to the region. Coffee drinking, football play and other activities might also defuse tension.